Truck Stick Vs Auto in a Panther

[Fordman75]

Oh come on you know you want a manual transmission!!

[CheeseSteakJim]

Yeah, come on man, wouldn't it be much more fun to row some gears in that car? You're going this far, why not go a little farther?

[Fordman75]

I'm going with a 4spd manual transmission behind my 460! Even grany shifting a manual is more fun then an automatic!!

[Mercracer]

I'm going with a 4spd manual transmission behind my 460! Even grany shifting a manual is more fun then an automatic!!

If your idea of fun is being less quick in the 1320, that is.....

A 4-speed and a 4000+lb car are not often a good combination. Throw in a heavy 4 speed with crappy gear ratios and you will be sloooooowww. Your choices of 4 speeds are expensive and crazy expensive.... Strong 5-speeds are actually less expensive....

[Fordman75]

If your idea of fun is being less quick in the 1320, that is.....

A 4-speed and a 4000+lb car are not often a good combination. Throw in a heavy 4 speed with crappy gear ratios and you will be sloooooowww. Your choices of 4 speeds are expensive and crazy expensive.... Strong 5-speeds are actually less expensive....

Not everyone is building an all out drag car. If all I was worried about was running as quick as a could in the 1/4, I wouldn't bother building a Panther. I'd just grab a fox chassis. The Fox chassis makes a much better platform for drag racing.

And the combination I'm going to run had no problem at all hauling a 6000 pound truck around at a rapid pace. So I serious doubt it would be slower in a vehicle that weighs literally over a ton less.

I'm running a big block T-19 behind my 460. It weighs less then the big block C6, robs much less power then the C6. And it has gear ratio's of 4.02, 2.40, 1.40 and 1:1. Compared to a Tremec TKO 500 which has 3.27, 1.97, 1.34, 1:1, 0.68.

Let's see the Tremec TKO 500 is almost $2000. I can pick up the big block Ford T-19's for $200.00. For the difference in price I can live with the T-19's gear ratio's.

Oh yea and shall we compare the T19's gear ratio's to the C6? The C6 has ratio's of 2.46/1.46/1.00. So if I start out in second I'll be running almost the identical gear ratio's to a C6. I'll just have more of my engine's power getting to the ground. And more fun doing it!!

[Glen]

Damm, that a big jump between 1st & 2nd. We used to call that a grany gear in the old pick-ups.

[Fordman75]

Damm, that a big jump between 1st & 2nd. We used to call that a grany gear in the old pick-ups.

That ain't a grany gear!! My 87 F250 Has the NP435 4spd. It has the 6.68 first gear. That's a grany low first gear! And you need that when towing/hauling with a small/er engine. My 87 has a 5.0L.

[grandpaslincoln]

Borg-Warner T18 in my F250 is at 6.32 in first gear, good for pulling stumps, and that's about it lol.

[Mercracer]

Not everyone is building an all out drag car.
And the combination I'm going to run had no problem at all hauling a 6000 pound truck around at a rapid pace. So I serious doubt it would be slower in a vehicle that weighs literally over a ton less.

I realize that you are not building a drag racer. It just seems like alot of work just to make a car shift like a truck... You aren't improving on the "performance" but may be able to improve mileage depending on your axle ratio...
It's your car and you can build it however you want. I am not trying to change your mind and am just discussing the differences for general discussion. I used to prefer any stick over an automatic too. Just realize that it WILL be more like shifting a truck than a car with a stick...

I'm running a big block T-19 behind my 460. It weighs less then the big block C6, robs much less power then the C6. And it has gear ratio's of 4.02, 2.40, 1.40 and 1:1. Compared to a Tremec TKO 500 which has 3.27, 1.97, 1.34, 1:1, 0.68.

Let's see the Tremec TKO 500 is almost $2000. I can pick up the big block Ford T-19's for $200.00. For the difference in price I can live with the T-19's gear ratio's.

Oh yea and shall we compare the T19's gear ratio's to the C6? The C6 has ratio's of 2.46/1.46/1.00. So if I start out in second I'll be running almost the identical gear ratio's to a C6. I'll just have more of my engine's power getting to the ground. And more fun doing it!!

A C6 has a torque converter. A 2.40:1 1st gear standard transmission will be "lugging" the engine when you start out depending on your axle ratio....... 2.40 to 1.40 is a significant jump. This is like skipping second gear in a 4 speed. Since your definition of fun is rowing the gears, then yes it will be more fun... You may get better mileage, but your acceleration performance will be slower than a TKO or a C6..... I know that you already said that you are OK with that. For your application, you do not need a brand new TKO 500....
You are going to need to get creative with your shifter for that T19 or it will come up into your dash....

[Mercracer]

That ain't a grany gear!! My 87 F250 Has the NP435 4spd. It has the 6.68 first gear. That's a grany low first gear! And you need that when towing/hauling with a small/er engine. My 87 has a 5.0L.

4.02 IS a granny first gear.... The SROD had a 3.29:1 1st gear ratio and some T-5s had a 3.35:1 ratio. These are steep gears for a car.... 4.02 is almost extreme on the street depending on your axle.... What that tranny does allow you to do is run a 2.73:1 or even numerically smaller ratio for mileage. If this is your goal, then it makes sense...
For a truck application, 4.02:1 1st gear and a 302 will get most loads moving just fine... 6.68 is only needed for exceptionally heavy loads. It has little to do with a 302 vs a 460..... Once the load is in motion, (.0001MPH) you are already shifting into the next gear...

[P72Ford]

Shifting gears is sometimes fun (and definitely cool in a panther), but I would have to advocate for the C6 in this case. Sometimes its just nice to sit back, nail it, and move without having to shift, etc. But, it is still fun to play with a three pedal car, especially if its not something you drive all the time (such as a weekend toy). I personally would still probably go with a built C6 over a manual trans, even if it was just a toy.

As far as truck transmissions in a car go? I'm not too sure about that. I've never driven a car with a truck transmission. I have driven a truck before though, and the granny gear wouldn't be advantageous at all for racing. It goes by so fast that its silly. My dad's '83 Int'l 1600 pulls to 4 mph in 1 with the axle in low range. Thats with the engine all wound out. You can maybe get 6 or 7 with the axle in high range. That combined with the inability to quickly shift makes it a little imprcatical. Without or without the clutch, it just isn't feasible to shift the transmission quickly. A fast shift in the aforementioned Int'l is like the slowest possible shift ever in a car.

It was the same way with my Dad's '73 F350 (4 spd; maybe NP 435), and especially in his '77 Louisville (NP 435). I mean, if you're not using it to race, then maybe it'd be ok, and it would still be fun. I also think a shorter shifter may lend itself to somewhat quicker shifters. Everything I've driven might as well have a broom handle for a shifter.

Fordman75: I can't blame you for going with a cheap alternative, especially if you aren't going to be seriously racing the car. It should be fun, and it'll definitely be interesting. I look forward to hearing more about this. Also, would the ZF 5 spd from F350's and Super Duty F450's (of the mid to late 90's), also be an alternative? That'd give you 5 gears, and maybe an overdrive (not sure on that). Not sure how it stacks up price wise, but its a possibility if you'd want more than a 4 spd.

[gadget73]

Whacking the shifter down would almost be a neccesity in a car unless you want that 70s pimpdaddy tall shifter look thing. That was actually the VW short throw shifter on the cheap trick, whack the shifter a few inches and suddenly you have a short throw.

[Fordman75]

A C6 has a torque converter. A 2.40:1 1st gear standard transmission will be "lugging" the engine when you start out depending on your axle ratio....... 2.40 to 1.40 is a significant jump. This is like skipping second gear in a 4 speed. Since your definition of fun is rowing the gears, then yes it will be more fun... You may get better mileage, but your acceleration performance will be slower than a TKO or a C6..... I know that you already said that you are OK with that. For your application, you do not need a brand new TKO 500....
You are going to need to get creative with your shifter for that T19 or it will come up into your dash....

Mercracer every vehicle I own has a manual transmission so why would I go to an auto in my toy? The few automatics I did own I'd still manually shift them.

I'm starting with a bare rolling shell so anything I do to the car will improve the performance. And this isn't going in stock 5.0L powered Panther. I'm swapping in a strong 460 ( Not all out race engine ) .

2.40:1 does not lug down my 460 in my truck. Hell I can start out in 3rd gear on my truck. And my truck has a much taller tire then the Panther will too.



Is the T-19 the perfect transmission for this application. No it's not. But for my budget for this build it's the best compromise. For the price there isn't another manual transmission that will handle the abuse and be any better. Hell if you want to buy me a TKO 500 or TKO 600 I'd be more then willing to run one. Or if you can find me one for the same $200 the T-19 cost me I'd be more then willing to run it.

4.02 IS a granny first gear.... The SROD had a 3.29:1 1st gear ratio and some T-5s had a 3.35:1 ratio. These are steep gears for a car.... 4.02 is almost extreme on the street depending on your axle.... What that tranny does allow you to do is run a 2.73:1 or even numerically smaller ratio for mileage. If this is your goal, then it makes sense...
For a truck application, 4.02:1 1st gear and a 302 will get most loads moving just fine... 6.68 is only needed for exceptionally heavy loads. It has little to do with a 302 vs a 460..... Once the load is in motion, (.0001MPH) you are already shifting into the next gear...

You yourself even said this is going in a heavy car not some light weight drag car so the steeper first gear will be a benefit!

And as far as mileage goes who cares! I will be running a 460!!! But running a 2.73 rear gear will give me a higher top speed then a C6 equipped one with 3.55, 3.73 or 4.10 gears. You may beat me in the 1/4 but on the highway not only will I catch you I will drive on by and leave you staring at my taillights!!

And the 4.02 gear is not enough gear for my 5.0L powered truck for what I haul. The 6.68 is much better and saves a lot of wear and tear on the clutch. But then a light load for me is 800 pounds in the box and an empty 2300 pound car trailer. usually I'm towing 8000+ pounds behind my truck.

Shifting gears is sometimes fun (and definitely cool in a panther), but I would have to advocate for the C6 in this case. Sometimes its just nice to sit back, nail it, and move without having to shift, etc. But, it is still fun to play with a three pedal car, especially if its not something you drive all the time (such as a weekend toy). I personally would still probably go with a built C6 over a manual trans, even if it was just a toy.

As far as truck transmissions in a car go? I'm not too sure about that. I've never driven a car with a truck transmission. I have driven a truck before though, and the granny gear wouldn't be advantageous at all for racing. It goes by so fast that its silly. My dad's '83 Int'l 1600 pulls to 4 mph in 1 with the axle in low range. Thats with the engine all wound out. You can maybe get 6 or 7 with the axle in high range. That combined with the inability to quickly shift makes it a little imprcatical. Without or without the clutch, it just isn't feasible to shift the transmission quickly. A fast shift in the aforementioned Int'l is like the slowest possible shift ever in a car.

It was the same way with my Dad's '73 F350 (4 spd; maybe NP 435), and especially in his '77 Louisville (NP 435). I mean, if you're not using it to race, then maybe it'd be ok, and it would still be fun. I also think a shorter shifter may lend itself to somewhat quicker shifters. Everything I've driven might as well have a broom handle for a shifter.

Fordman75: I can't blame you for going with a cheap alternative, especially if you aren't going to be seriously racing the car. It should be fun, and it'll definitely be interesting. I look forward to hearing more about this. Also, would the ZF 5 spd from F350's and Super Duty F450's (of the mid to late 90's), also be an alternative? That'd give you 5 gears, and maybe an overdrive (not sure on that). Not sure how it stacks up price wise, but its a possibility if you'd want more than a 4 spd.

Whacking the shifter down would almost be a neccesity in a car unless you want that 70s pimpdaddy tall shifter look thing. That was actually the VW short throw shifter on the cheap trick, whack the shifter a few inches and suddenly you have a short throw.

For the shifter I'm using a trick the early Bronco guys use when they run a NP435 4spd's. It's called a gear banger shifter. It's a remote located shifter. It locates the shifter farther back and also shortens the shifter throws a lot so it shifts less like a "truck". They have an aluminum version and a cheaper steel version. Both are pictured below. I'm going to fabricate my own that will look somewhere in between the two designs.

And I'm going with an aluminum fabricated dash so I'll also have much more clearance then the stock dash also.






460Panther sorry about

[P72Ford]

I found a ZF 5 speed on Craigslist for 500. Thats not too bad.

I've visted a few 4x4 forums via a google search. Folks that have swapped the T19 out for a ZF are pleased with the results. They say highway speeds are far more comfortable, with less engine RPM.

The ZF will have to be from a gas truck though, as the diesel bellhousing is different.

BTW, that shifter setup looks like its pretty serious; the truck transmission may not be a bad alternative for a cheap manual trans. It'll certainly be heavy duty enough.

[Fordman75]

I found a ZF 5 speed on Craigslist for 500. Thats not too bad.

I've visted a few 4x4 forums via a google search. Folks that have swapped the T19 out for a ZF are pleased with the results. They say highway speeds are far more comfortable, with less engine RPM.

The ZF will have to be from a gas truck though, as the diesel bellhousing is different.

BTW, that shifter setup looks like its pretty serious; the truck transmission may not be a bad alternative for a cheap manual trans. It'll certainly be heavy duty enough.

I owned a few trucks with the ZF 5spd. And I don't really care for them. They are hard to find cheap in good shape. They have issues with the synchro's on the higher mileage ones. And they have a steeper first gear then the big block T-19 does.

The ZF is more difficult and more expensive to rebuild then the T-19.

The only benefit I see with the ZF is the OD. And if I run a 2.73 or 3.08 rear gear I've got no need for OD.

The T-19 is just my choice because they are nearly bulletproof, they are a simple design, cheap to buy and I already have two of them!

If this was going to be a dedicated drag car I would probably have to invest in a racing trans. But it's not so I can use some of my Po-Boy engineering and use the truck transmission.

But if anyone wants to donate a big block top loader 4spd, TKO 500 or 600 or how about a Lenco ST1200 I'd be more then willing to run one!!