85 351 4door Vic **DUW**

[Hearsesrock427]

Wow! I wasn't expecting this much progress. You've basically got a brand new frame underneath her- I approve of the hit-hard-with-hammer test. Best to fix stuff now and get her running and driving nicely before you start adding power. A fast car with a questionable frame and wonky brakes is a statistic waiting to happen. Then you can hoon with confidence- after you get your lovely jungle of wiring under the hood sorted out. I gotta give you credit for being brave with that stuff- especially keeping the emissions crap! If it were me, I would've just gutted all that shit and grinned like an idiot.

You won't be phased by more modern cars and their miles of wiring at this rate, that's for sure.

I love that shade of blue BTW, reminds me of an old unmarked cop car. Those teal pinstripes really pop out against that dark blue background too! New wheels look great too- she definitely gives off the street machine vibe with those babies on. And I know what you mean about being under the gun drive a summer car! I've probably got three solid good weeks left before I need to park Ebyt, and there's a whole lot of work to be done..... precious little time for hard, fun, driving.

[johnunit]

Thanks. The reliability improvements have mostly been of the 'well I might as well do it while I'm in there' sort, but having it so thoroughly checked out and fixed up is almost exciting me more than the extra power and grip.

The colour is killer. That's with a quick no-soap rinse after 2+ years under a tree. The colour is part of why I haven't swapped her for something cleaner.

[Brown_Muscle]

Awesome progress! Good to see you're still at it. I bet it feels good to have that extra feeling of security, having the car solid once again. How did you get the smog stuff operable on it's own without the MCU? You said something about relays? I know that the MCU controls those solenoids to divert the air from the air pump to different locations depending on temperature and a couple other things, I think without it, it just purges it to atmosphere, making it essentially non-functional.

I considered keeping my smog pump and the MCU just to run it...but ended up ripping it out-engine sounds a lot healthier now, and no problem passing emissions.

I can't wait for the next updates! Will be nice to hear what a 4bbl does to her.

[johnunit]

Awesome progress! Good to see you're still at it. I bet it feels good to have that extra feeling of security, having the car solid once again. How did you get the smog stuff operable on it's own without the MCU? You said something about relays? I know that the MCU controls those solenoids to divert the air from the air pump to different locations depending on temperature and a couple other things, I think without it, it just purges it to atmosphere, making it essentially non-functional.

I considered keeping my smog pump and the MCU just to run it...but ended up ripping it out-engine sounds a lot healthier now, and no problem passing emissions.

I can't wait for the next updates! Will be nice to hear what a 4bbl does to her.

Thanks. The tunnel now.has some light at the end of it. I can stop being quite so jealous hearing your updates.

I haven't got it all together and prove yet, but short version is I took the computer middleman out and will.now trigger things by temperature, vacuum, a timed.relay, etc.

[slack]

Awesome progress! I'm hoping to try some of the POR-15 on my frame before the winter to hopefully keep away having to reweld in sections.

[Brown_Muscle]

Thanks. The tunnel now.has some light at the end of it. I can stop being quite so jealous hearing your updates.

I haven't got it all together and prove yet, but short version is I took the computer middleman out and will.now trigger things by temperature, vacuum, a timed.relay, etc.

Nice! Sounds do-able, if you can post up details of how you did it after all is said and done.

I forgot to say sorry about your other ride! When it went, it went hard!

[johnunit]

Nice! Sounds do-able, if you can post up details of how you did it after all is said and done.

I forgot to say sorry about your other ride! When it went, it went hard!

I've been keeping pictures and annotated wiring diagrams as I go, I'll post it all when I prove it actually works.

Yep, made a hell of a noise. Just glad it didn't take much with it, just the cv shafts really.

[IPreferDIY]

Current plan is grinding and wire wheel, then rust converter, then asphalt undercoating.

I've seen the rust converter stuff, but I've never actually tried it. As you may know, when you use the Rust Check oil stuff, you have to keep reapplying it, and it doesn't actually stop the rust completely once it's started. Is the rust converter really a more permanent solution? It sounds ideal from the way it's described, but it seems too good to be true.

[johnunit]

I've seen the rust converter stuff, but I've never actually tried it. As you may know, when you use the Rust Check oil stuff, you have to keep reapplying it, and it doesn't actually stop the rust completely once it's started. Is the rust converter really a more permanent solution? It sounds ideal from the way it's described, but it seems too good to be true.

Better than putting anything traditional over the rust, by a significant margin. But the best plan is always to remove anything that doesn't look like proper metal.

[johnunit]

So,
She runs now. And drives. Not plated, but has seen brief back-road test drives and lots of parking lot shenanigans.

Got a sound clip of it. Sounds meh at the low-speed full throttle driving, but at least it sounds incredible revving in neutral (near the end of the video).

The Bad:

The tire rubs a bit on the right rear inner fenderwell. Just that side, probably mostly because it sits lower on that side. I hope it's just a weak spring, but we'll see when I put the new ones in.

I may or may not have caught the front half of the intake on fire from leaving a fuel fitting loose. The damage is basically fixed now, but I had to use a fire extinguisher so the underhood is a total mess.

Still haven't hooked up the Lokar TV cable, so all testing/tuning has happened in first gear. Good thing it's good for 50+mph in 1st.

Still takes a bit too long to warm up/not stall. I probably just need to mess with the idle mixture and choke settings a bit more. Also stalls when you let off the gas abruptly, or will just stumble if you're at high RPM's.

Exhaust leaks... pretty close to just handing it over to the highly respected exhaust shop down the street and saying 'make this not suck'. Also it's still dumped at the axle so drone is my homeboy.

Tried the ziptie trick on the collar for the shift indicator, somehow made it worse.

Still have the engine bay wiring almost completely unloomed.

Still have the alternator light on, despite having high 13's voltage at the battery and a fairly new regulator.

From what I can learn in a slightly dusty parking lot, it's going to understeer a lot. Predictable with staggered fitment, but still pretty severe.

The brakes are just plain weak, I think. Again hard to tell from a dusty parking lot, but something is still up with the brakes, especially the rears. Having so much more tire grip accentuates that.

The speedometer needle is wobbly AND louder than before, this after putting in a new speedo cable (and lubing inside the cable sheath quite well).


The Good

My 'hand whitewalled' rear tires are holding up so far to basically every kind of abuse you can dish out in a parking lot and a few brief runs up to 50+mph. Doing the fronts will come after I get the mechanical stuff sorted, but it looks like it'll all work.

It's a lot faster at high RPM's. I wasn't really sure how much the 4 barrel would help. Once the secondaries kick in around 3000RPM, the answer is a lot. Should have plenty of passing power. Not significantly more power down low, but I knew that since it's just an airflow upgrade.

The grip has increased to the point where I can barely keep myself in the driver's seat. I'm very happy with the wheel and tire upgrade, considering I'm still running stock, worn shocks, springs, and bushings.

I finally found the damned vacuum leak that was giving me warm air in the summer. Even if the A/C compressor is basically a 50+ pound idler pulley, it's nice to have non-heated air available.

The timing marks are now accurate. I got out the piston stop and some timing tape from Summit Racing, and found that, as I suspected, the balancer's outer ring had slipped. The TDC mark was off by at least 10 degrees, and the other marks were invisible until I sanded on the balancer to get a good surface to stick the timing tape to. Turns out I was running negative timing. As in 2-4 degrees AFTER top dead center at idle with vacuum advance plugged. No bueno. Idle jumped up ~150RPM by bumping it up to about 4 degrees after top dead center. Unfortunately, I can't go any further without getting up over 40 degrees total advance at high RPM (checked by just revving in park to 3500+). Still, it runs a hell of a lot better with non-insanely retarded timing.




The Questions

Stalling when letting off the gas, how the heck do I fix that? The idle RPM and mixture are reasonable. If anything it's too rich and idling too high. Yet it still tries to die when you let off the gas abruptly. Holley 4160 carb.

The timing issue. I've got the "heavy" springs from the Crane Cams advance kit, and have actually JB welded the holes in the mechanical advance limiters to reduce the total mechanical advance. But it's still adding roughly 40 degrees of timing from at idle with the vacuum advance plugged (base timing) to 3000+rpm. So I worry that in a medium throttle, medium RPM situation I could get both vacuum advance and mechanical advance coming in and detonate/knock badly. But I don't know, this is the first car I've had to set up timing from scratch with.

The shift indicator needle. If I've got the collar that always breaks stable, but still getting extremely sporadic movement from the indicator, what should I be looking towards?

Speedometer needle shaky would maybe be lubing something in the speedo housing, right? I don't think a gear is stripped since this changed while the car was parked.

Alternator light: What will turn it on other than low voltage? It is on steady. Externally regulated alternator. Yes I'll probably go 3G eventually but that's not in the cards time or money wise right now.

Brakes: possibly stupid question, but we do almost no drum brake work in the shop. Will not having my parking brake cables hooked up cause the drums to lose adjustment? They have been removed (totally seized and rotten) but not replaced yet because ohgodrusteverywhere.

[jaywish]

Well, I can comment on the rear brakes. The self adjusters are not dependent on the parking bakes. If the springs and cables are in correctly, the backing plates cleaned and lubed the self adjuster should tighten the adjustment when needed every time you back up and hit the brakes.

Notice I said "should". My self adjusters never performed to my satisfaction, no matter what. I achieved what I felt was the best possible braking balance when I jacked the car up every few Kmiles and adjusted them by hand. Had the same problem in some other cars back in their days.

That is probably not your problem at all though. With the self adjustment mechanism installed, the brakes should not loosen at all. So when set by hand they should only get tighter not looser. A few trips around a dirt parking lot should not wear the shoes significantly. I say adjust the brakes once more to see if it was just a break-in/settle-in issue. If you still have problems perhaps the linings are contaminated. Maybe the rear main seals?

Also do you have taller tires in the back then the front? I believe this would effectively reduce rear braking relative to the fronts. Only by a small percentage though.

In general I was never real happy with the original 10" drums in the first place. In fact I was never real happy with drums ever and was really glad when front disk brakes became popular.

Finally, you may just want to bleed them again, shouldn't hurt.

[johnunit]

Good info. Will definitely recheck adjustment and bleed again.

11 inch police drums, 255/60/15 front 295/50/15 rear so actually a tiny bit taller up front

[jaywish]

I never had a car with the 11" but those should stop you from other peoples reports.

[gadget73]

Check the wheel cylinders too. Often you'll find seized pistons so one or no shoe will work on a given side. Might be worth just replacing them. They are not expensive.

If the ring on the balancer slipped, I'd put a new one on. I've seen 302's at least with broken crankshafts from balancers coming apart. I don't know if the 351 would be subject to the same thing, but I wouldn't trust it.

Not much involved in the shift indicator really. The collar, the crank arm on the shifter itself, the little cable, and there is a spring on the back side of the cluster that pulls the indicator to park with no tension on the cable is the whole thing. Make sure the crank arm isn't ready to break off, and make sure there is tension on the little wire if you pull on it.

The speedos are commonly shaky on these, probably means the little bushing where the speedometer shaft goes through the frame into the needle itself it sticky. If you've ever had one apart, there isn't much there either. The speedometer cable itself drives a spinning magnet. Around the spinning magnet is this C shaped thing that connects to the shaft that the needle sits on. There is also a little clockspring in there to return the needle to zero. The only other thing in there are the gear(s) for the odometer(s). A very small drop of thin oil on the bushing where the needle shaft is, and maybe a little bit into the back side where the speedo cable hooks up is likely about all you can do for it. A worn out cable can also do this. The cable is basically a spring. If its sticking inside the jacket, it can make for an unstable speedometer.


The light isn't quite a voltage indicator. The light comes on when the voltage reg senses no voltage at the stator of the alternator, which doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with whether or not the alternator works right. Make sure the connections between the regulator and the alternator are good, and make sure the alternator itself is good. Also might be worth unplugging the voltage regulator and checking to see if the light is still on. If it is, you've got a short in the wiring between the dash and the regulator.


THe carb thing, not sure. Makes me wonder if the main jets are far enough away from right that letting it back to idle shifts the mixture too much. Might also be the fat fuel mix at idle causing it to misfire until it burns out the extra fuel.

[johnunit]

Check the wheel cylinders too. Often you'll find seized pistons so one or no shoe will work on a given side. Might be worth just replacing them. They are not expensive.

Forgot to mention that everything but the drums themselves is new back there.

If the ring on the balancer slipped, I'd put a new one on. I've seen 302's at least with broken crankshafts from balancers coming apart. I don't know if the 351 would be subject to the same thing, but I wouldn't trust it.

I hear ya. Definitely high on the shopping list.

Not much involved in the shift indicator really. The collar, the crank arm on the shifter itself, the little cable, and there is a spring on the back side of the cluster that pulls the indicator to park with no tension on the cable is the whole thing. Make sure the crank arm isn't ready to break off, and make sure there is tension on the little wire if you pull on it.

The speedos are commonly shaky on these, probably means the little bushing where the speedometer shaft goes through the frame into the needle itself it sticky. If you've ever had one apart, there isn't much there either. The speedometer cable itself drives a spinning magnet. Around the spinning magnet is this C shaped thing that connects to the shaft that the needle sits on. There is also a little clockspring in there to return the needle to zero. The only other thing in there are the gear(s) for the odometer(s). A very small drop of thin oil on the bushing where the needle shaft is, and maybe a little bit into the back side where the speedo cable hooks up is likely about all you can do for it. A worn out cable can also do this. The cable is basically a spring. If its sticking inside the jacket, it can make for an unstable speedometer.

Speedo cable is new and had a fair amount of lube put in. So I guess next step is pulling the speedo out and taking it apart. Blech.

The light isn't quite a voltage indicator. The light comes on when the voltage reg senses no voltage at the stator of the alternator, which doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with whether or not the alternator works right. Make sure the connections between the regulator and the alternator are good, and make sure the alternator itself is good. Also might be worth unplugging the voltage regulator and checking to see if the light is still on. If it is, you've got a short in the wiring between the dash and the regulator.

Interesting. So next steps would probably be pulling the plug on the regulator, and failing that checking voltage right at the stator plug.

THe carb thing, not sure. Makes me wonder if the main jets are far enough away from right that letting it back to idle shifts the mixture too much. Might also be the fat fuel mix at idle causing it to misfire until it burns out the extra fuel.

I think you may be onto something with the fat idle mixture, since it was the warmest day yet yesterday and was doing it worse than ever.