Okay, this is going to be beyond the experience of the average Box Owners, no offense, it's just my dilemma I've ran into that many of you will never experience. I have an 1987 Town Car original AOD (obviously), converted to a T5 with a MANUAL TRANS MASS AIR ECU. Now although we are not Mustang owners the Ford basics of eec-iv wiring are the same. In the mustang world it is a widely known issue that 1987 original speed density cars cannot be converted to the 1988+ mass air ecu with the original 1987 speed density ecu/O2 harness because it doesnt have the proper 8 wire configuration for the additional return signal wiring needed in the 88+ maf ecu thus not operating oxygen sensors properly, running rich and running in limp mode. I have been experiencing drivalbility issues such as running rich, and suspect it goes limp mode as well. I am going to look tomorrow, jut I believe thau my O2 HARNESS to ECU HARNESS connector only has 5 pins and not 8 pins just like described in many of the articles addressing this matter. I'd like to know from any one else if they know if the 88+ Panthers came with this wiring provision for an anticipated maf ecu. If any of you Panther experts know, it would be greatly appreciated. I am going to begin loing for an 88+ to look at myself.
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87' Lincoln Town Car Stars + Stripes. Explorer GT40P, Anderson B31 Cam, Shorty Headers, FRPP 1.6 Rockers, A9L, Sn95 T5 Trans, 3:55 Limited Slip, GNX Rear Springs, LSC Turbines, 1.5 wheelspacers, Full Custom Dual 2.5/Flowmasters, 00 P71 Airtube, 19lb calibrated Maf, Summit Alum Radiator, King Cobra Clutch, Short throw Shfter, Energy Susp Trans Mount,
Mods to come: Big Brake/Poly Front Swap, PI Front Swaybar, Addco 650 Rear Swaybar, Boxed Upper Rear Control Arms, 351/Alum Heads, FRPP Valve Covers, -
In 88 they went to an integrated cruise control system. As such, your 87 harness does not have the VSS signal fed to the ECM. If thats not present, you'll have some running problems, as well as a code about VSS signal. I don't know the specifics in the Mustang world, but I have a sneaky suspicion thats what those extra wires are. There are only 4 wires actually needed for 2 oxygen sensors. A ground that feeds both, a hot that feeds both, and a signal wire from each back to the ECM. When I did mine, I had some off-idle hesitation that I couldn't get rid of until I hooked up the VSS signals. I tapped out of the wiring that comes out of the other trans harness (there are 2, one for the 02 sensors, one is neutral safety and vss) to feed VSS signal to whatever pin on the ECM needs it.
An 88+ ECM harness would have the VSS stuff, but you'd lose cruise control since it wouldn't feed signal to the cruise module. There may be other stuff as well, I really don't know. Honestly for what its worth, I'd just add in the VSS wiring and see where that gets you. I can tell you that a mass air setup can and does run just dandy in an 86 because i own one, and I've driven another. One thing though, are you running the stock engine? If so, why on earth are you running an HO ECM? That'll just run overly rich.
Also, there is something with the neutral safety switch wiring between auto and manual trans ECMs. I forget the specifics but if you get it wrong, you smoke part of the ECM because it grounds something that should not be grounded. Make sure you check that you're using the proper ECM for what you are trying to do here.86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley
91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry
1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal
Originally posted by phayzer5
I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers
Everything looks like voodoo if you don't understand how it works -
I have the VSS wiring and new sensor. No vss codes. No maf codes, no O2 codes. The problem that I'm having is that it blows fuelmist at idle and gets 13mpg. I think it goes into limp mode. Wish I could tell. The question is a matter of 1987 5 pin vs 1988+ 8 pin. Joel the ecm expert at sbftech says that the non existence of any vref or sigrtn related codes indicates that the wiring and O2's are functioning properly, but I still find it hard to believe that every 1987 speed density mustang that ever attempted to convert to maf using the original 5 pin harness went into limp mode, but yet it's not going to happen to my 87 town car speed density harness? I just want to verify if an 88+ panther has 8 pins at the ecu/O2 connector. Maybe those other 3 wres mean nothing to the ecu. Hopefully so. Idk what they are for yet. I know my capacitor was fried at pin 57. Unrelated?87' Lincoln Town Car Stars + Stripes. Explorer GT40P, Anderson B31 Cam, Shorty Headers, FRPP 1.6 Rockers, A9L, Sn95 T5 Trans, 3:55 Limited Slip, GNX Rear Springs, LSC Turbines, 1.5 wheelspacers, Full Custom Dual 2.5/Flowmasters, 00 P71 Airtube, 19lb calibrated Maf, Summit Alum Radiator, King Cobra Clutch, Short throw Shfter, Energy Susp Trans Mount,
Mods to come: Big Brake/Poly Front Swap, PI Front Swaybar, Addco 650 Rear Swaybar, Boxed Upper Rear Control Arms, 351/Alum Heads, FRPP Valve Covers,Comment
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Hey Gadget. I think youre a little mixed up in thinking that cruise control wouldnt work with a 1988 harness in an 1987 car. 87 has the standalone brain so it wont matter which engine ecu is used. Am I right about what you meant? It's irrelevant anyway, because that's not what I'm doing anyway, unless I found a reason to swap to a 88 harness which again would still retain the 87 cruise brain.Last edited by 87stars_stripes; 02-24-2013, 12:58 PM.87' Lincoln Town Car Stars + Stripes. Explorer GT40P, Anderson B31 Cam, Shorty Headers, FRPP 1.6 Rockers, A9L, Sn95 T5 Trans, 3:55 Limited Slip, GNX Rear Springs, LSC Turbines, 1.5 wheelspacers, Full Custom Dual 2.5/Flowmasters, 00 P71 Airtube, 19lb calibrated Maf, Summit Alum Radiator, King Cobra Clutch, Short throw Shfter, Energy Susp Trans Mount,
Mods to come: Big Brake/Poly Front Swap, PI Front Swaybar, Addco 650 Rear Swaybar, Boxed Upper Rear Control Arms, 351/Alum Heads, FRPP Valve Covers,Comment
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If you use the 88 harness though, it will not have any VSS signal going to the cruise module. You would need to get VSS signal out of the later harness into the cruise module. Its actually the same reason why you have no VSS input to the ECM now, it goes only to the cruise module. Its a 6 of one, half dozen of another sort of thing. Either you're getting VSS signal out of the ECM harness, or tying it in, but either way you're doing some splice work.
anyway what engine, injectors, and MAF are you using?
pin 57 should be power feed from the ECM relay. I don't recall a capacitor on that line. If there is one and it died, the only reason it should have failed is either it was hooked up backwards, or its just 25 years old and said FU. I rebuild a lot of old electronics, and the FU theory is entirely possible. These things do go bad.Last edited by gadget73; 02-24-2013, 05:39 PM.86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley
91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry
1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal
Originally posted by phayzer5
I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers
Everything looks like voodoo if you don't understand how it worksComment
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actually what most msutang owners do is get a MAF wireing harness to go with everything... makes things easier to say the least.89 townie, mild exhuast up grades, soon to have loud ass stereo....Comment
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yes but those don't fit our cars, and they all had stand-alone cruise anyway.86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley
91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry
1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal
Originally posted by phayzer5
I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers
Everything looks like voodoo if you don't understand how it worksComment
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who needs cruise?Originally posted by gadget73 View Post89 townie, mild exhuast up grades, soon to have loud ass stereo....Comment
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people who don't feel like holding down the pedal. Us same folk who like working air conditioning and quiet mufflers. Its a Lincoln.86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley
91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry
1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal
Originally posted by phayzer5
I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers
Everything looks like voodoo if you don't understand how it worksComment
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your lincoln is not quiet.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
Originally posted by gadget73
... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
Originally posted by dmccaig
Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.Comment
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Compared to one with no mufflers, it is. I'd actually prefer it quieter than it currently is. The drone is sort of irritating.86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley
91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry
1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal
Originally posted by phayzer5
I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers
Everything looks like voodoo if you don't understand how it worksComment
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"Also, there is something with the neutral safety switch wiring between auto and manual trans ECMs. I forget the specifics but if you get it wrong, you smoke part of the ECM because it grounds something that should not be grounded. Make sure you check that you're using the proper ECM for what you are trying to do here."
Ford Windsor Small Block Performance book refers to a "pin 30" for the AOD ecu feeds 12v starting system. You can swap out auto trans ECU with no issue but manual trans ECU will be fried from the pin 30 power. Of course they are talking Mustang stuff but...Comment
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That sounds right. I knew it was a case of one switched to +12v, and the other switched to ground. I just couldn't remember which did what exactly. Also not 100% sure what the stock wiring in these cars does either. I've never actually looked it up. It should be in the EVTM but mine isn't handy at the moment. Then when you talk about stuff thats modified to use a manual trans, it would depend what was done when it was converted. Non-stock stuff can be an interesting ball of wax.86 Lincoln Town Car (Galactica).
5.0 HO, CompCams XE258,Scorpion 1.72 roller rockers, 3.55 K code rear, tow package, BHPerformance ported E7 heads, Tmoss Explorer intake, 65mm throttle body, Hedman 1 5/8" headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, ASP underdrive pulley
91 Lincoln Mark VII LSC grandpa spec white and cranberry
1984 Lincoln Continental TurboDiesel - rolls coal
Originally posted by phayzer5
I drive a Lincoln. I can't be bothered to shift like the peasants and rabble rousers
Everything looks like voodoo if you don't understand how it worksComment
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I did some research on this when I was doing a MAF conversion on my 88 MGM.
From what I could tell, this was only an issue for people doing transmission swaps. The engine harnesses are the same between manual and auto. It's the O2 sensor and transmission harnesses that are different. Since I wasn't changing the engine harness or swapping transmissions, I figured it didn't apply to the panther chassis.
Read here;
http://forums.corral.net/forums/gene...erences-2.html
The cliff notes version; on a Fox body Mustangs the transmission harness is different between auto and manual transmissions. On some transmission harnesses there is a jumper wire that needs to be to a different location. Having the jumper wire in the wrong location will allow power be applied to pin #46 in the ECM and essentially frying that circuit.
Quoting from the article I mentioned above;
"The start voltage is routed through the NSS in a Auto setup and not in a Manual setup. So the mis-match in harness sends 12v start voltage to the NDS(PIN 30) and the SIGRTN circuit. Once the SIGRTN trace in the ECM is burnt, every sensor that uses it will go haywire.
The reason codes couldn't get ran is because the SIGRTN circuit is used at the Test connector to retrieve them. The STI terminal is grounded to the SIGRTN to send the ECM in to test mode. If the trace is burnt, then the STI doesnt see the ground signal. So no codes flash. But the engine can still run."
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"check for voltage on pin 46 while cranking..
no voltage = good
voltage = jumper wire in wrong place,move it."Last edited by 88grandmarq; 03-06-2013, 11:06 PM.2003 Town Car Signature - 3.27 RAR, Dual exhaust and J-mod - SOLD 9/2011
89 Crown Victoria LX HPP -- SOLD 9/2010
88 Grand Marquis LS - The Original -- Totaled 5/2006
I rebuild AOD/AODE/4R70W/4R75E transmissions....Check out my Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/North...48414635312478Comment
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as long as you use an ECM for an automatic, it's a non issue on panthers.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
rides: 93 Crown Vic LX (The Red Velvet Cake), 2000 Crown Vic base model (Sandy), 2003 Expedition (the vacation beast)
Originally posted by gadget73
... and it should all work like magic and unicorns and stuff.
Originally posted by dmccaig
Overhead, some poor bastards are flying in airplanes.Comment
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