Moves Like Jagger

[Mike_O]

So I'm considering having my car's engine rebuilt. I'm not a mechanically inclined person so, once again, I need guidance.

Rebuilding the engine obviously will mean replacing the pistons and stuff and the seals and gaskets, but what specifically should I request the mechanic do to the engine? Rebore the cylinders? Replacing the timing chain?

In particular, should I change from carbeurator to EFI?


Please post your inputs. Thanks.

And sorry for the title.

[Mike_O]

How silly, I forgot to give the engine type.

It is a 351 Windsor, 5.8L.

[sly]

rebuild is actually just rings, seals, bearings, bushings, and machining and balancing if needed. If the cylinders need to be bored out, then you'll need new pistons. Otherwise a quick hone and new rings will work fine.

[mrltd]

you NEED a stroker kit and some good cylinder heads.

[1990LTD]

stroker kit.

[Mike_O]

Well I compiled a list of things to get done.

I mean, I love this car and I want to keep it in great condition, so...

ENGINE REBUILD
- Carbeurator (rebuild or new)
- replace carbeurator with EFI?
- Bore/Hone cylinder walls
- Pistons
- Valves
- Pushrods
- Valve springs
- Rocker arms
- Crankshaft
- Camshaft (with lifters)
- Lifters (with camshaft)
- Bearings
- Timing chain
- Pulleys?
- All new gaskets!!
- Oil pump
- Oil pan
- Water pump
- Starter motor
- Belts
- Vacuum hoses
- Fuel tank
- Fuel pump
- Fuel lines


That's everything I want to replace in the engine. Overly ambitious?

[BerniniCaCO3]

I took a class at a local community college. Very helpful, really. Dozens of little pointers throughout the process.
And then a couple pointers that the instructor missed that cost me a ton of time and major grief... like installing the pump driveshaft from the bottom, or the proper sealant to use on the oil galley plugs! Oh well.
Still did better than strictly on my own would have turned out.
I did a 302 btw; but someone else did a 351. Design was the same, really, just larger on the whole?

Also coming out of my first engine rebuild, the KISS principle applies, no matter how smart, generally mechanically inclined, and well-researched you are.
i.e., probably not a stroker kit ;-)

How much you have the machinist do, depends on condition.
My old block was at 115,000 miles and in good enough condition that I didn't need to do much machining.
The crankshaft diameters --mains and rods-- were unworn, and the connecting rods were not deformed. I did nothing to them. If the mains are worn down, remachining and oversized main bearings is an option.
The cylinders were barely worn, and had a ridge that only rehoning revealed visually; I couldn't feel it really. I rehoned them for admittedly hours, which is what it takes with a hand drill and a honing tool!
Can you guess that I had a limited budget yet?
You can drop a thousand in a heartbeat if you did a bunch of stuff. But you can see, with a 110,000 mile engine, a basic rebuild with new bearings worked for me. There was no machining necessary. It did need new bearings, the babbitt was worn down to the copper in many places. Can't really say about ring condition being good or bad or how you tell. Valves needed a good cleaning on the wire wheel.

As it happens, I screwed up the valve guides/sleeves and needed new seats installed; goodbye $200. There was a bit of slop in the valves, so new guides were not strictly necessary but could not hurt, and this was a class to try and do it all right, so I went ahead. The tool to drill the pilot for the valve sleeves was a crude handheld rig, and surprise, the pilot holes were all at slight angles. Although I might have done it wrong... can't remember exactly how it turned out that way.

I measured, and heads and block were within spec to not need refacing. There was a bit of bowing to the heads, so I wanted them machined (it was like $30/head), although the machinist forgot, so they ended up not being done.
But anyway, regrinding the block face and the heads is not that expensive and is good practice as a matter of course.


Pistons probably won't need to be changed. You do not want to wire wheel the pistons, btw, and I was only told this too late...ANOTHER thing the main instructor missed!
And installing new piston tops onto the old connecting rods is a pressfit in these engine requiring a hydraulic press to remove and miniature furnace to install. Since you probably don't need to go through the trouble, unless your piston tops are seriously *&%#ed up or your connecting rods oblonged or even bent, don't!

What else.
Main and rod bearings are straightforward. Piston rings are straightforward. Camshaft bearings need to be tapped out and tapped back in again, making sure to align the oil holes. Might want a buddy, and might want to buy/borrow the relevant tool; or just see if the machinist is cheaper than buying the tool and just have him do it.

[BerniniCaCO3]

Yeah, that's a complete, and good list, I think.
Unless you have reason to think they're rusted/bent out of shape, no need for new pulleys.
Harmonic balancer has rubber in it and was $30 for a 302: piece of mind cheaply bought.

Lifters are a good idea.
If they're non-roller, camshaft could be a good idea. Had a classmate with a 1970s 350 block; camshaft was WIPED out. The amount of zinc diphosphate? zdp. has been cut back in engine oils, and it's critical to older non-roller lifters. You can buy it separately as an additive if you have a non-roller block, I believe.

Depending on mileage you probably won't need a crankshaft. If it is worn, opt to remachine as a first option. I've heard bad things from folks buying new crankshafts on a budget, chinese ones in particular, that basically need to be remachined as a matter of course because the machining is so godawful. Sometimes the forging is alright. But ford factory precision was not bad, whereas a new one introduces a variable of how much you trust the aftermarket to be straight and machined properly!

Fuel lines are external to the build: do them now, do them later, I don't think it makes a difference in ease-of-access.
I can't remember: if it's carbureted, your fuel pump is right on the block? If so, why not.
EFI conversion is up to you. Dunno how complicated that would, or wouldn't, get.
Every little addition/improvement does add time, and you don't want this to become one of those projects that you're sick of and want to go away, and sits in the backyard rusting for a year before you've the energy to tackle it again! Ambition feels like a high when you start out, but you can get bogged down in a big, first-time project. KISS will also help you see it through to the end, when it's back in the car and running right!

[Mike_O]

The engine in question is a 351cid Windsor with a 2 barrel VV carbeurator. The engine has 130,000 kilometers (not miles) on it.

Yeah, that's a complete, and good list, I think.
Unless you have reason to think they're rusted/bent out of shape, no need for new pulleys.
Harmonic balancer has rubber in it and was $30 for a 302: piece of mind cheaply bought.

Lifters are a good idea.
If they're non-roller, camshaft could be a good idea. Had a classmate with a 1970s 350 block; camshaft was WIPED out. The amount of zinc diphosphate? zdp. has been cut back in engine oils, and it's critical to older non-roller lifters. You can buy it separately as an additive if you have a non-roller block, I believe.

Depending on mileage you probably won't need a crankshaft. If it is worn, opt to remachine as a first option. I've heard bad things from folks buying new crankshafts on a budget, chinese ones in particular, that basically need to be remachined as a matter of course because the machining is so godawful. Sometimes the forging is alright. But ford factory precision was not bad, whereas a new one introduces a variable of how much you trust the aftermarket to be straight and machined properly!

Fuel lines are external to the build: do them now, do them later, I don't think it makes a difference in ease-of-access.
I can't remember: if it's carbureted, your fuel pump is right on the block? If so, why not.
EFI conversion is up to you. Dunno how complicated that would, or wouldn't, get.
Every little addition/improvement does add time, and you don't want this to become one of those projects that you're sick of and want to go away, and sits in the backyard rusting for a year before you've the energy to tackle it again! Ambition feels like a high when you start out, but you can get bogged down in a big, first-time project. KISS will also help you see it through to the end, when it's back in the car and running right!

[mrltd]

The engine in question is a 351cid Windsor with a 2 barrel VV carbeurator. The engine has 130,000 kilometers (not miles) on it.

Well, it shouldn't be. It should be a 408ci with a 4 barrel carb.

kilometers, not miles.... hmm. Worn metrically.

[Mike_O]

Well, it shouldn't be. It should be a 408ci with a 4 barrel carb.

kilometers, not miles.... hmm. Worn metrically.

Prove it.

[Mike_O]

So, they want $3700 to do everything I want done to the engine.

I'm gonna buy the parts piecemeal over the winter, then in the spring time I'll do the work myself.

I'll save thousands.

[79lincolnlover]

Is this Merc your daily driver? How's the frame? If it's in bad shape, don't bother with an engine rebuild. Save up money for a better box and just keep running this one.

[Mike_O]

Yes it is my daily driver, and the frame is in excellent condition indeed.

[79lincolnlover]

Yes it is my daily driver, and the frame is in excellent condition indeed.