Prudence, my 87 Town Car

[kishy]

I'll +1 the whole meetup thing. I've certainly gotten close enough to you without meeting up that I'll make the time if it can work when you're in this area. I don't see how you wouldn't pass through Detroit on the way up there.

Plenty of spots for cool car photos around Detroit, if that interests you at all, and the new international bridge is very nearly complete and neat to see.

[DerekTheGreat]

I'm definitely down, was last year as well but nothing materialized. Oh well. My car is freshly detailed and ready to be seen..

[Lutrova]

Well it's been an interesting week with the car. The shop returned it to me on Monday, the First, with working AC, a fresh H-pipe, and adjusted drum brakes. The latter two items were done in an attempt at eliminating noises. Both the exhaust leak and brake squeal are still present, but better than before. The AC received a new compressor and orifice tube, an o-ring at the low-side service port, and a full charge of refrigerant.

I then drove the Lincoln for most of the week as my sister was in town and our Honda Fit wouldn't hold three adults and two kids in car seats. It was pretty hot most of the week too, with temps in the 90s and a decent amount of humidity. So far, the AC hasn't been great. It's sufficient when the car is moving, at least keeping pace with the outside heat. But there was a day where we were stuck in a drive-thru line for nearly 40 minutes and the air was no longer blowing cold. I'm wondering whether the condenser is at fault or if the weather we've been having is just too much for the system as designed.

The more concerning development happened tonight on a run to the airport and back. I noticed the instrument cluster was a little dim on the way out, but it wasn't until halfway through my return trip that I realized I had lost the charging system and the battery was all but dead. It was getting dark, everything electrical was starting to act up, and the headlights would flash a warning they were out every time I tapped the brakes. Fortunately I managed to get home before the engine died or night fell. The battery read somewhere around 8.5 volts when I pulled into the garage.

After hooking up the trickle charger, I looked in the engine bay and found the 150A breaker in between the battery and the alternator had tripped. I'd like to know why this happened and when. I assume the battery took longer to drain than what a 70 mile round trip could do.

The shop is expecting the car again in the morning. Hopefully they can shed some light on a few of these problems.

***

As far as travel through the Detroit area goes, it's looking like we'll be passing through this coming weekend and returning on the following. Still subject to change, but I think mid afternoon on Sunday, July 14th, is the first window of opportunity for a meet up. We'll be starting the day near Ravenna, Ohio, and ending up in Gaylord, Michigan. Detroit is just about the halfway point between them.

[DerekTheGreat]

My A/C system has been entirely replaced, short of the hoses and condenser. It gets ice box cold at speeds above 35, practically no matter what the outside temperature & humidity is. If starting from hot & muggy though, it'll take a while and performance in stop & go traffic isn't great. That is due to the mechanical fan & it's clutch. Mine is bad, again. But the car doesn't overheat in 99.5% of the driving it does. It's worth checking yours and to see if there's any crap between the condenser and radiator. Years ago I had a 1994 Ranger, the A/C didn't work due to all the schmutz packed between the condensor and radiator.

Hmm, how are the grounds and such? Were you running the blower on high?

We should be around, short of us going to my wife's grandparent's place.

[kishy]

Well it's been an interesting week with the car. The shop returned it to me on Monday, the First, with working AC, a fresh H-pipe, and adjusted drum brakes. The latter two items were done in an attempt at eliminating noises. Both the exhaust leak and brake squeal are still present, but better than before. The AC received a new compressor and orifice tube, an o-ring at the low-side service port, and a full charge of refrigerant.

I then drove the Lincoln for most of the week as my sister was in town and our Honda Fit wouldn't hold three adults and two kids in car seats. It was pretty hot most of the week too, with temps in the 90s and a decent amount of humidity. So far, the AC hasn't been great. It's sufficient when the car is moving, at least keeping pace with the outside heat. But there was a day where we were stuck in a drive-thru line for nearly 40 minutes and the air was no longer blowing cold. I'm wondering whether the condenser is at fault or if the weather we've been having is just too much for the system as designed.

The more concerning development happened tonight on a run to the airport and back. I noticed the instrument cluster was a little dim on the way out, but it wasn't until halfway through my return trip that I realized I had lost the charging system and the battery was all but dead. It was getting dark, everything electrical was starting to act up, and the headlights would flash a warning they were out every time I tapped the brakes. Fortunately I managed to get home before the engine died or night fell. The battery read somewhere around 8.5 volts when I pulled into the garage.

After hooking up the trickle charger, I looked in the engine bay and found the 150A breaker in between the battery and the alternator had tripped. I'd like to know why this happened and when. I assume the battery took longer to drain than what a 70 mile round trip could do.

The shop is expecting the car again in the morning. Hopefully they can shed some light on a few of these problems.

***

As far as travel through the Detroit area goes, it's looking like we'll be passing through this coming weekend and returning on the following. Still subject to change, but I think mid afternoon on Sunday, July 14th, is the first window of opportunity for a meet up. We'll be starting the day near Ravenna, Ohio, and ending up in Gaylord, Michigan. Detroit is just about the halfway point between them.

Tripped circuit breaker is an interesting one. Lots of possibilities:

• Is it accurately rated, or did it possibly pop at, say, 60 actual amps?
• Is it sensitive to vibration and maybe popped when you hit a bump while also drawing a certain amount of current?
• Does it have a manual trip button that was maybe hit by something nearby?
• Or did you somehow actually pull 150A through it? With sufficiently sized battery cables, and a battery that was otherwise in a near-dead state, plus using lots of accessories, I could see it being possible. But I do think the battery would need to have been gobbling up a bunch of amps itself to recharge in order to create that much draw (without knowing what all you've maybe added in terms of accessories, sound system, etc)

Your AC performance issue is identical to my own. I DIY-rebuilt the AC on the 91 (new compressor, new hoses, new orifice tube, flushed both coils), verified no leaks, and charged it with one of the propane-isobutane mixture refrigerants which generally perform well in R12 systems. It is only cooling when the car is in continuous movement - regular city speeds work, but highway works better. It does get properly chilly in those conditions. I suspect I'm actually overcharged because it was colder in a wider spread of conditions when the clutch was cycling off for low pressure, so in my case, letting some out and tweaking the adjustment on the low pressure switch is probably the way to go. You, having presumably used R134A or actual R12, will have a somewhat different problem, so this is just theoretical conversation, not necessarily helpful to you. I remember how this car's AC performed in 2012 with real R12 in a system that was professionally repaired - it was downright cold in the car, and that's what I aspire to get back to.

Especially on a Sunday afternoon, I can absolutely make myself available if there's something you want to do. Are you anticipating that being the right time for a meal stop? If so, toss out some ideas for food types that work for everyone who'll be in the car, and the locals can give you some suggestions.

Personal favourites to pre-emptively suggest:

• Gritty (and sorta literally dirty too) and cheap, but it's a landmark and a tourist attraction in and of itself: Lafayette Coney Island in downtown Detroit.
• Middle Eastern: Yemen Cafe in Hamtramck. Personal experience is that women in your party may be disregarded by wait staff while men are readily assisted (but the woman in the scenario where we observed this was super soft-spoken and maybe they just repeatedly didn't hear her). Food is good though.
• Greasy sliders: Hunter House in Birmingham. It's on Woodward and this is a weekend in the summer - you will probably get to see a sampling of Woodward classic car cruising while there. Small spot, very tight when busy.
• One Eyed Betty's in Ferndale. Hard to describe - neat atmosphere. Reasonably diverse menu. Also near/just off Woodward.
• Mexican: either Mi Pueblo or El Nacimiento in SW Detroit.

(Metro)Detroit also has a local style of pizza, which is alright if you like a "medium dish" pizza on the greasier side.
I will specifically recommend against Chinese because Detroit overall seems to do Chinese way greasier than what I'm accustomed to and it never seems to sit well.

And if it's not an appropriate time for a meal stop, we can just find a well-shaded park not too far off the highway (or at least a scenic drive off the highway) to hang out for a bit.

[friskyfrankie]

It has been verifiable shown that R-134a substitutes only "do well" when there is good air flow. At idle, they perform much more poorly to real R-134a. Something to think about....

[gadget73]

I've been running R134a in my 86 for years and even with an original condener, underdrive pullies, and a clutch fan it cools adequately at idle. Its better when moving but its not like sitting at idle will cause me to melt.

Better condenser helps, but having a good fan clutch is absolutely essential. Getting the charge right is also important. If the condenser has trash in it from a failed compressor, and especially if the orifice tube had trash on it, the condenser must be flushed or its not going to work well. The old single flow type do flush pretty well, the later parallel flow ones basically you replace because its all but impossible to flush them completely.

faults in the ATC system can also cause you grief, if its not shifting the blend door all the way to cold for whatever reason its going to be warmer than it ought to be. Same if the blend door foam is causing a poor seal. The usual clue there is it works really well initially but after 10 minutes or so when the engine is up to temp the AC starts to work less-well. If the blend door is fully over there isn't a ton you can do about it short of installing a bypass valve on the heater core. I think it was sly that figured out some part from a Ranger that will bypass the heater core when vacuum is applied to squeak some more AC performance out. Can't just shut off the flow since the coolant temp sensor is in that loop but nothing says the coolant has to go through the heater core, it just has to flow through the line.

[sly]

Yeah... I did that on the Mark VI to help that one's AC. Plumbed the vacuum to the panel vent actuator (blue line IIRC) so it would only trigger on panel which is triggered on AC.

And yeah... it's the Ranger/Explorer part.

MOTORCRAFT YG350 or similar "heater valve"

[Lutrova]

The air blows plenty cold at speed. I got 35* from the center vents with an infrared thermometer while cruising at about 45 mph. I looked at the condenser and the space between it and the radiator and it appears to be clear of debris. The shop is of the opinion that the fan clutch could be to blame, as several people have suggested here. I'll be a little annoyed if that ends up being the case since I just replaced it two years ago.

Post-Michigan the heater bypass looks like an interesting project.

As for the charging system, the grounds could certainly be suspect. I've tightened and cleaned up a few over the years, but it's hardly been an exhaustive effort. The aftermarket head unit loses its memory 9/10 times when I start the car, which I've assumed is probably a ground issue. Maybe the erratic fuel gauge could also be chalked up to the same. There are plenty of electrical gremlins in this car that have defied my attempts to fix them so far.

Tripped circuit breaker is an interesting one. Lots of possibilities:

• Is it accurately rated, or did it possibly pop at, say, 60 actual amps?
• Is it sensitive to vibration and maybe popped when you hit a bump while also drawing a certain amount of current?
• Does it have a manual trip button that was maybe hit by something nearby?
• Or did you somehow actually pull 150A through it? With sufficiently sized battery cables, and a battery that was otherwise in a near-dead state, plus using lots of accessories, I could see it being possible. But I do think the battery would need to have been gobbling up a bunch of amps itself to recharge in order to create that much draw (without knowing what all you've maybe added in terms of accessories, sound system, etc)

No idea what the breaker's true rating is, but the trip button is quite firm and positioned clear of any nearby objects. I also don't know when it first tripped. I would've thought the message center would've thrown up a 'charge system' warning as soon as the issue occurred, but the conditions for that must be based off something else. However, when I jumped the car this morning to take it to the mechanic, the breaker tripped again upon ignition. I tried resetting it while the engine was running, but it wouldn't catch, which I guess suggests the fail state was continuous. The shop's hunch is the alternator died, and that's what I went with two years ago when this same thing happened. But I'm a little surprised that I've gone through two junkyard 3G's so quickly.

***

A meal would likely be in order, as would an opportunity to stretch our legs, weather permitting. Some kind of American would be good - sliders, pizza, sandwiches would all be well received by our two year old. My only other thought is a place with parking in view. I don't know anything about Detroit other than stereotypes, but we will be loaded up for a road trip and I would hate to make ourselves an easy target. Then again that's probably not a real concern on a Sunday afternoon.

[DerekTheGreat]

My "new" fan clutch was just as dead as the unit it replaced within two or three years after I installed it. I haven't replaced it because I figure the new one couldn't be any better.

I highly recommend One-Eyed Betty's. It's in Ferndale, Woodward & 9 Mile. Great little spot which offers an eclectic atmosphere, tasty burgers and delicious French dip sandwiches. Order your fries double baked and you're in for a treat. Como's is right across the street from OEB's and offers decent pizza. Buddy's is preferred, but they're pretty spendy these days.

[gadget73]

If you're getting 35 when moving its definitely an airflow problem. The old style condensers are not as efficient so the vent temps will go up but it shouldn't be that bad unless the fan just isn't doing dick.

the fan shroud isn't missing is it? That also will make it work a whole lot worse.

[Lutrova]

Fan clutch was leaking a little. Not even two years old. And apparently the tow/police clutches no longer exist, so a standard duty, thermal replacement was installed. The shop also swapped out the orifice tube for a different version and verified refrigerant levels and pressures. Not quite sure what that means with the tube, but they said the result was somewhat better idle performance. Still not tremendous, but better. I haven't had the opportunity to test it, as I'm reluctant to idle the car long if it can be avoided. Nonetheless, we took a trip to northern Virginia last night and the air was plenty cold. The new compressor sounds much louder than I remember the old one being, but that may just be how they are.

Fan shroud is present. It's the '90 TC model, but I believe the opening is the same as the original. One thing the shop suggested was damming the gaps around the sides of the radiator/condenser to maximize airflow across them. I've seen a couple cars in junkyards with this stuff still present, but I don't think I took any pictures.

The alternator was also replaced, as was the '150 amp' circuit breaker I had installed. Shop reported the old alternator was still charging, but too much, so perhaps the regulator failed? The circuit breaker was tripping every couple of minutes even with the new alternator, so it got the axe too. This is the third 3G I've had on the car and it doesn't chirp the belt at ignition, which was true of the first one as well if I recall correctly.

Something must've been up with the charging system for the past year, as the headlights would dim when I locked the doors. That's no longer the case. I don't really understand why that would be the case when it would happen even with the engine off and now it's fixed after an alternator swap, but I'm not complaining.

[DerekTheGreat]

If they touched the battery connections before messing with the alternator, that could be why the problem doesn't exist any more. Corrosion sucks.

[gadget73]

Probably the variable orifice tube? Those are supposed to improve idle performance by partially simulating an expansion valve rather than a fixed orifice.

[sly]

Going from the blue to the orange tube is the usual way to get better idle performance. Very slightly smaller creates a better differential at idle... but yeah... it's not much better. A variable would be better since they work a little like an expansion valve.