kishy's 1984 Town Car

[gadget73]

ground the wire, see if the gauge climbs.

If thats the idiot light sender vs a gauge sender it won't work either.

[kishy]

This car is officially "under the knife" to return it to the road this year - work beginning 2025-02-23 at 209,984km.
It is not yet clear to me if I'll be doing my big road trip in May as with the past two years, but if I do, I'd like this car to be ready for it so it can be an option.

The list of currently known priorities is as follows:

• Rear brakes. All the bits and pieces are newer and in good shape, however, they're very grabby and I'm not sure what the problem is. It may be shoe material since I think I had this same problem on another car and likely bought both sets of shoes at the same time.
• Front brakes. Stock stuff. Warped/pulsing. I have all the stuff to make it have 95-97 brakes, and will do so.
• Ride height. This has newer single-rate springs in the back, with Air Lift bags. One of the bags won't hold air, not sure what the fault is presently. Gotta fix that. Then for the front, I have a set of new Moog 9046 bought in 2018 to put in there.
• Fluid leaks: heater core, oil from all over, power steering. Not really wanting to do the same engine-yanking treatment I did to the 91, but if it looks like the oil pan gasket is a problem, I will.
• Probably mess around a little with the exhaust hangers, but the exhaust itself is all very low mileage and shouldn't need any replacement pipe or components.
• Some sound system business, as recently discussed in another thread.

Not many photos today, as I enlisted my coworker's 15 year old kid to come turn wrenches as he wants to learn "how to work on cars" (since he "wants a car like Kevin's" for his first), so I was more focused on teaching/explaining than documenting.
So I got together some stock box brake and suspension parts, and some 95-02 parts, and showed him the differences in things like tapered roller bearings.
I showed him how to jack up the car and support it on stands, check it for stability, put the wheels under the frame rails.
I directed him in getting the brakes apart and getting the knuckle and upper control arm off the car.
Compressed the spring, took out the shock, undid the sway bar and got the spring out.
I then pressed out the lower ball joint, showing him how to set up the press.

I had two sets of lower ball joints of different brands. I ended up mangling the boot on one of one brand, so knocked it back out and popped in the other brand...and then proceeded to mangle the boot on that one as well. The Moog ones are particularly challenging to install but I've always managed to succeed before now, so this is a low point for me...especially with another pair of eyes watching.

Anyway, that's where things left off for the night. The car will end up with a mismatched pair of lower ball joints but that's fine. The other joints, sans boots, will live on the shelf until I figure out how to buy boots for them.

[87gtVIC]

That’s nice of you to teach the yougin showing interest in these older cars. Bummer on the boot mangling. It is good for him to see not everything always goes well.

I think it would be neat for you to take this car on the trip, if it is taking place. Different car every year. Maybe someone would come up to you and say “there was a wagon two years ago and a black grand marquis this past year” and you can say “ those were also mine!” Silly things like that which people wouldn’t expect.

good luck with the resurrection!

[DerekTheGreat]

Good to see this one returning to the road. I am also trying with young ones to get them into the hobby. Our oldest wants the Town Car and I've told her if she wants it, she has to work to show me she can care for it.

[gadget73]

do these use a short / long shoe thing? Its been an extremely long time since I messed with box rear drums but I know things that have different length shoes get real stupid if its not right. I've also had grabby rear drums when the wheel cylinders don't work right. One shoe moves and the other doesn't so the moving one goes twice as far as it ought to for a given amount of pedal input.

[kishy]

It was honestly kind of cool, being the teacher. I've never been in that role before, I'm always just hammering stuff out to get it done.
I was super attentive to repeating all the stuff I've been taught over the years, even all the way back to high school auto shop classes with some of the safety tips for lifting and supporting the car.

The car he's currently eyeing (not that I think it's likely to happen, 15 isn't old enough to get a learner's permit aka G1 here) is an M-body Fifth Avenue, which being a V8 RWD luxury car does have some similarities but they're mechanically pretty different cars from Panthers. I think they have torsion bar springs up front? Leaf springs in the rear. But either way, becoming familiar with a pretty common front suspension design (the Panthers are a clone of most Ford and GM RWD cars in that respect) won't be a bad idea.

Yes, Panther drums use the long and short shoe setup. I am very nearly positive that I do drum brakes correctly, but I've now had issues with the Panther 10" brakes enough times that I should probably scope out what the actual shop manual says for how to set them up and see if there's anything I routinely do wrong.

I took a look at the boot for the Moog ball joint and found a number molded into it: 6389L.
RockAuto doesn't list it as a part, which usually means it doesn't exist.
Interestingly though, someone seems to be making a clone of it: https://www.ebay.com/itm/302208635577
They list is as fitting K8259 which, among other things, does fit box Panthers. My ball joint is a K8685 for 95-02. Seems possible it likely will fit so I'll take a gamble on a couple and report back.

[DerekTheGreat]

Me either. Well, not for a young person anyway.

Lots of repetition and explanation as well as hands-on so they can actually apply all the word salad they just listened to. I was always interested in cars though, so I wanted to learn and hung around, didn't need to be convinced or told. But the oldest is coming around, she's starting to know tools and even changed out the driver's side spark plugs & wires on the Town Car last spring. She thinks modern cars suck, that's the icing on the cake for me.

[VicCrownVic]

Not likely your problem since you were just in there, but I've had a grabby rear drum when I had a leaky wheel cylinder.
I'd take that gamble on the ball joint boot, if they don't fit in this case you probably have something in the fleet that could someday need them. You certainly know people around here that have such vehicles in their fleet.

[kishy]

Me either. Well, not for a young person anyway.

Lots of repetition and explanation as well as hands-on so they can actually apply all the word salad they just listened to. I was always interested in cars though, so I wanted to learn and hung around, didn't need to be convinced or told. But the oldest is coming around, she's starting to know tools and even changed out the driver's side spark plugs & wires on the Town Car last spring. She thinks modern cars suck, that's the icing on the cake for me.

I tried to, as much as possible, explain not only the "what" but also the "why" of our actions.
For example,

• Leaving the jack raised below the frame, and putting the removed wheels under the frame, because those items being there could save our lives/limbs and reduce damage to the car if a jack stand fails

Having young women get interested in this stuff is a big deal and it's great that you're encouraging the interest. They've got generations of conditioning (and one of those generations is current) trying to tell them that this type of hobby/interest/knowledge/skill is for guys. Being able to save some money (and if not money, at least convenience/downtime) by fixing things yourself is a great skill, not to mention the whole 'critical thinking' aspect of it.

Not likely your problem since you were just in there, but I've had a grabby rear drum when I had a leaky wheel cylinder.
I'd take that gamble on the ball joint boot, if they don't fit in this case you probably have something in the fleet that could someday need them. You certainly know people around here that have such vehicles in their fleet.

I think, without scrolling back to verify, that I was very recently in here about this car's grabby brakes. Wheel bearings and seals, and verified the cylinders didn't leak. I am suspicious that the shoes (either the arc/shape of the leading edge, or the material) are the problem. And somewhere I have a set of freshly turned drums that'll fit this, as well as a set of shoes of a different brand, so a full overhaul won't be hard to achieve.

If it turns out to be grooved backing plates (which I do feel like I explored previously so likely isn't the problem), I have a set of junkyard take-off 11" drums kicking around, as well as a whole axle in storage with rear discs, but that's a pretty invasive surgery for what should be a simple problem.

[DerekTheGreat]

I tried to, as much as possible, explain not only the "what" but also the "why" of our actions.
For example,

• Leaving the jack raised below the frame, and putting the removed wheels under the frame, because those items being there could save our lives/limbs and reduce damage to the car if a jack stand fails

Having young women get interested in this stuff is a big deal and it's great that you're encouraging the interest. They've got generations of conditioning (and one of those generations is current) trying to tell them that this type of hobby/interest/knowledge/skill is for guys. Being able to save some money (and if not money, at least convenience/downtime) by fixing things yourself is a great skill, not to mention the whole 'critical thinking' aspect of it.

Oh yeah, I did that too. I always emphasize safety, you only get the number of eyeballs and digits you start with, so better not to lose them. Hearing too.

Thank you. I'm trying, but we'll see if her interest stays as she becomes a teenager. Critical thinking is not currently one of her strong points. Despite that, I still push her to think about what she's doing, how she's doing it and why so she can have the ability to improve at anything she does. Example: I never thought filling an ice tray would require tutelage.

Yes, that's very scary. It's as if things are regressing for women even, as the population of women who are looking for their kept Mrs. degree is increasing. But I'll be damned if she idolizes that kind of lifestyle. I try to place a big emphasis on her independence and all things music & academic, especially math & science. I hope it offsets all the Barbies and related garbage all the other family buys for her, not to mention criticism I get for encouraging her to use her brain.

[sly]

I always emphasize safety as well along with a story of a guy I knew that killed himself being stupid with a car. Car rolled off the ramps it was up on and it was not in a condition to run to get back up on the ramps so he got the bright idea to push it back up and didn't make it and the car rolled back over him. Yeah... not a good day. He was one of the best guys in my high school class at the magnet school I didn't graduate from. I found out about this in college because one of the other kids in our class was there for a term to knock out some gen ed for transfer. Always be aware of where you are in relation to the vehicle and which way it will go if it moves.

That said... I almost dropped the Expedition on me when I was working on the fuel tank. Thankfully the jack stand just slid over some and caught on the control arm before it could fall down. I also wasn't UNDER it... I was at the edge of it. So I repositioned the jack stand and continued on.

[gadget73]

M body is the successor to the F body, which is what the Aspen and Volare used. I don't know how different that was from the old A body that the Valiant ran but they do indeed have torsion bar front suspension and leaf springs in the back. the Aspen actually drove pretty good. I knew someone that had one. I'd expect an M body car to be similar, though it may not drive as well as a Panther. Also you're looking at lean burn tech under the hood most likely. Feedback carb with the timing and fuel control if its a V8. I don't know if the slant 6 got that system but its going to be pre-EFI emissions control nightmare fuel.

I wouldn't mind a mid 80s Yorkie myself but the driveline would probably all go in favor of a late Magnum 318 or 360 and an overdrive trans. No thanks on gutless 318's with a 3 speed.

[DerekTheGreat]

Gadget, have you been drinking while typing??

[kishy]

Crossposting for, uh, referential integrity*:

https://www.grandmarq.net/vb/forum/technical/box-tech/electrical-and-wiring-hvac-vacuum-cfi/1402507-school-me-on-some-car-audio-basics-please?p=1403106#post1403106

Started monkeying with the sound system in this car. Current arrangement and potential evolution of it being described at link above.

*: these threads are very nearly the only record I keep of anything I do to my cars, so I occasionally go back through them on my own to find whatever breadcrumbs I left in the past as a reference for a date I did something, or what I even did.

M body is the successor to the F body, which is what the Aspen and Volare used. I don't know how different that was from the old A body that the Valiant ran but they do indeed have torsion bar front suspension and leaf springs in the back. the Aspen actually drove pretty good. I knew someone that had one. I'd expect an M body car to be similar, though it may not drive as well as a Panther. Also you're looking at lean burn tech under the hood most likely. Feedback carb with the timing and fuel control if its a V8. I don't know if the slant 6 got that system but its going to be pre-EFI emissions control nightmare fuel.

I wouldn't mind a mid 80s Yorkie myself but the driveline would probably all go in favor of a late Magnum 318 or 360 and an overdrive trans. No thanks on gutless 318's with a 3 speed.

I do believe the M body traces its lineage way way back like that. I've known a few people into those cars and they've always praised them for their ride. I'm sure the seats, which may be among the best any automaker ever put in any car, help with that sensation as well.

But yes, they were easily the most problematic for engine management (if you can call it that) in their day and anyone trying to get into one today should probably put a basic traditional carb on the original engine, or swap something with more readily accessible smart stuff. A high school kid isn't going to have the resources to do an aftermarket EFI system.

Also worth a quick pedantic mention that a "Yorkie" in the M body years would actually be a small FWD car - very plush and nice, but not the Fifth Avenue. Chrysler messed around with model names, maybe not as bad as how Ford mismanaged "LTD" in the same time period, but enough to make it a little confusing. Unless you mean an R-body, which I think did have a New Yorker.

[gadget73]

Gadget, have you been drinking while typing??

No, why?


82 New Yorker was an M body car, but it got re-named the Fifth Ave. Fine with either, definitely not interested in the K car variant.

allowing for lack of reasources I agree standard carb and just make it run more or less stock. With resources I'd prefer something with more snot. Could possibly still be convinced to retain the carb, one of the early overdrive transmissions is non-electronic and will work with that setup. Forget the number of it but its basically a 727 with an overdrive unit and a TV cable. The later ones are simply electronic versions of that. I just want an engine that breathes and has a little compression, not a wheezy 80s emissions thing.