kishy's 1991 Grand Marquis

[DerekTheGreat]

Ah! Interesting to see those air injection ports with threads. Do both go through or do you only need to seal the larger one? We'll be dealing with a 351 in a truck. Went to two yards this weekend to get parts and the outlook on that project is not good, especially on the passenger side. Looks like to get the access we need we'll either have to pull the upper intake or remove the fender. Hmm.

Another note is page 7 didn't load for me when I commented earlier. Otherwise, I would've included these comments in that post. Not the first time though, anyone else having this issue with threads?

[DerekTheGreat]

When I had the boxes... I always set the AOD to shift a little later (tighten up the TV cable about 1-2mm) but not late enough to be harsh. It was enough to feel the engagement. Never had any trans issues after that and put over 60K miles on that after initial rebuild/upgrade to wide ratio gears in the 88.

The trans in the white car has 235k on it. I recently swapped a valve body with a shift kit in it, plus its running more TV pressure. The valve body swap was mostly done to fix a problem with a dragging forward clutch. If the trans in that car pukes I'm blaming it more on the stuck check ball than me screwing with it. Besides, with a quarter million miles its more amazing that it works than if it failed.

...This will be in OD by the time you hit 40...km/h. Not cool. Don't like it. Shifts have some feel, and it doesn't feel slippy, but it's a total slug unless you're really into the pedal to keep it in a lower gear.

There's a balance to be found, but the basic idea is that a firmer shift is a faster shift. The sooner you engage a gear, the less time the parts spend slipping. A soft shift is soft because there's overlap where parts are, in essence, working against each other.

I simply won't use OD unless I know I'm going to be cruising at a speed appropriate to stay in it. Letting it go in and out as TV dictates in regular traffic is a recipe for a lot of wear, and by many accounts the AOD has an OD band that is undersized to begin with so there isn't a whole lot of wear possible before it's toast.

I drive a Lincoln and can't be bothered to feel shifts like all the hillbillies in their Fords & Mercurys. It should feel as if being whisked along the road by peasant power.

Anyway, yep, that's the general consensus. But IMO, slippage isn't as bad as stuff banging into gear. That puts undo stress on aged components that probably aren't up to the task of being banged together. Probably why the OD band in that Mark VII walked off the job. I wonder how much longer the trans would last in my truck if all I did was dump the clutch for every gear except 1st. Hey! I'd feel every shift though! If I'm going to do that, I might as well start dumping the clutch for 1st too, could qualify me for a [Hoonigan] decal to put on my rear window...

[kishy]

yeah may as well clean everything while its out. Even if its not a show-level detail it would be kind of silly to not spend some time with a pressure washer blasting the goo off the engine and engine bay while its more accessible than it ever will be again.

Yeah, I'm doing a wire brush and brake cleaner all over the backside of the engine, and anywhere that will be difficult once the engine's back in. I'll pressure wash the finished product in the car, maybe with hot water since I have that capability.

Will take a look around for other things that are easier to do with the engine out. I'm eyeing the fuel lines - perfectly sound, but a little rusty. If nothing else, the wire brush and brake cleaner treatment, and then soak them in an oil spray product.

Take note how far the rear main seal is installed. Do not just set it in flush with the block! Many have done this and it will leak! WagonMan

Hmm...didn't see this in time, already yanked it out.

That being said, I did notice it seemed to be slightly inset, maybe backed up against the raised ridge in that bore. I'll drive the old one back in again to compare the marks on the crankshaft if there's any uncertainty. Of course, setting it in too deep won't be an issue with this application, so I may just go for that.

Not quite sure how I'll drive it in. I've done this before (with, in fact, the exact same seal) on my 2.3 but I don't remember what tools I used. Maybe just a fairly wide punch and tap it in gradually going around the circle.

Also, when doing that rear main seal make sure to put some thread sealer on those flex plate bolts. I did not put sealer on those bolts when I swapped the engine in The Ice Car and I ended up with a small but steady leak that I thought was the rear main. I pulled the trans very soon after (maybe the next week) to find the oil source was those flex plate bolts and not the rear main.

For lining up the trans to engine I like to use box panther caliper slide pins to hold the two close enough to correct to get bolts started. I've pulled and reinstalled AODs (probably a dozen) far more than engines (2 pulls and only 1 install) and I don't think used the slide pins for engine install, it just sort of lined up but an engine leveler helped a fair bit with that.

I can vouch for that, as well as the flexplate bolts VCV mentioned.

Ah, yeah, I noticed the bolt holes were leaking oil after I took the bolts out. Maybe a dab of RTV spread into the threads followed up with a dab of threadlocker. My thread sealant which would be friendly to this task has been missing since I moved, and the stuff I can find is the thicker natural gas line stuff which just doesn't seem to squish into fine threads nicely.

Detail photos of a few things:

Removal technique (being careful not to scar the crankshaft):



Aforementioned raised ridge in the bore:



Replaced the PCV screen:



The air injection ports do, in fact, have the mythical threads people mention from time to time. A wire bore brush cleaned them up quickly and nicely (but you could never ever do that with the engine against the firewall) As I've deleted the pump, I'll plug these, maybe not with the fancy special plugs but just some typical bolts.





Random notes to self (or whomever):

• keep the TAB/TAD solenoids installed and connected to the harness, despite deleting the valves and vacuum lines, to avoid setting codes.
• to plug air injection ports: two 1/2" long bolts of 5/16-18 to plug and protect threads for holding on the air pipe, and two 1" bolts of 5/8-11 to plug the air ports.
• need PCV grommet, avoid Dorman as memory says it fits loosely and is what the current one is.
• exhaust bolts: manifolds to heads, and cats to manifolds. not sure at the moment what they are but they look like 3/8".
• bellhousing bolts: need one (I mean, really I don't, it's been fine for the whole time I've had it without it, but if I'm here anyway...and it wasn't even one of the difficult ones that was missing)
• option to deal with the throttle body coolant circuit, pick one of:
  • buy some coolant hose of the weird tiny size it is and put new hoses on
  • install #12-24NC bolts in newly tapped hose nipples to plug off the circuit
  • same as above except use a pipe plug on the intake manifold side

[Tiggie]

Take note how far the rear main seal is installed. Do not just set it in flush with the block! Many have done this and it will leak! WagonMan

I can vouch for that, as well as the flexplate bolts VCV mentioned.

[VicCrownVic]

Also, when doing that rear main seal make sure to put some thread sealer on those flex plate bolts. I did not put sealer on those bolts when I swapped the engine in The Ice Car and I ended up with a small but steady leak that I thought was the rear main. I pulled the trans very soon after (maybe the next week) to find the oil source was those flex plate bolts and not the rear main.

For lining up the trans to engine I like to use box panther caliper slide pins to hold the two close enough to correct to get bolts started. I've pulled and reinstalled AODs (probably a dozen) far more than engines (2 pulls and only 1 install) and I don't think used the slide pins for engine install, it just sort of lined up but an engine leveler helped a fair bit with that.

[WagonMan]

Take note how far the rear main seal is installed. Do not just set it in flush with the block! Many have done this and it will leak! WagonMan

[gadget73]

yeah may as well clean everything while its out. Even if its not a show-level detail it would be kind of silly to not spend some time with a pressure washer blasting the goo off the engine and engine bay while its more accessible than it ever will be again.

[kishy]

I've always left the converter in the trans and separated them at the flexplate. The last two pulls/installs I did with the trans attached still. It was not as fun to get out put the reinstall was much easier than playing the engine/trans line up game.

Do not pull the converter with the engine. it will probably tear up the front seal on the trans and it creates a blood bath on the floor when the converter pukes all over the place. Unbolt it, leave it in the transmission.

You can pull the engine using a plate bolted in place of the upper intake. No worries breaking the bolts. I've done it using both the correct one that gets all 6, and a modified 4bbl carb lift plate that got 4. Figure if you can pull a big block V8 out using the 4 bolts that were meant to hold down a carb, it'll pull a smallblock Ford using the same 4 bolts.

Much appreciated. I unbolted the converter and left it in the transmission.

I undid the other stuff I had forgotten about - fuel lines, wiring, removed the whole p/s pump bracket, heater core hoses, all of the air conditioning stuff since it doesn't hold refrigerant presently, removed/snapped off the remaining cat bolts - and yanked it out this afternoon.

Not too bad, honestly. Definitely regretting my choice of doing this with the car nose-in, but it's manageable. There is a low clearance to a ceiling fan which has scratched my hood (wasn't in conflict until the suspension wasn't holding the engine anymore), so I took that off, which I should have done first...but again, this wasn't supposed to be full engine removal.





My hit list while this is out is looking like:

• clean stuff moderately
• rear main seal
• clean or replace the pcv screen
• break free, and then reinstall all exhaust hardware. maybe go buy new bolts, it's all pretty ugly.
• possibly put on the set of 90 TC manifolds if I can find them. they should fit with the factory cats just fine.
• possibly hollow out the cats. on the fence about this. it's a known oil burner and I had always suspected restricted cats. I dunno.
• flush, then re-install the oil pump pickup
• oil pan gasket and oil pan

Feel free to add suggestions.

Engine mounts would probably be worth doing since I have them, but you can't swap them without removing the lower control arms, and I'm really not interested in going there right now.

I also finally understand the mystery of why they bothered with the dual-sump pan: while the pickup is at the back, the pump is at the front, and the front sump seems to primarily exist so there's room for it.

[gadget73]

Do not pull the converter with the engine. it will probably tear up the front seal on the trans and it creates a blood bath on the floor when the converter pukes all over the place. Unbolt it, leave it in the transmission.

You can pull the engine using a plate bolted in place of the upper intake. No worries breaking the bolts. I've done it using both the correct one that gets all 6, and a modified 4bbl carb lift plate that got 4. Figure if you can pull a big block V8 out using the 4 bolts that were meant to hold down a carb, it'll pull a smallblock Ford using the same 4 bolts.

[Tiggie]

I've always left the converter in the trans and separated them at the flexplate. The last two pulls/installs I did with the trans attached still. It was not as fun to get out put the reinstall was much easier than playing the engine/trans line up game.

[kishy]

I did think to scrape the rust off the oil pan. It isn't as bad as I thought, but it's still pretty scaly. Since I have an oil pan on-hand, it seems wise to continue.

I read a few references to people doing oil pans in-vehicle. Sounds like the wiper housing needs to come off the cowl to get it lifted high enough. Well, at least on a 91, that part doesn't appear to be removable, and if it is, the dash has to come out first, so...no. Decided engine removal was the only way to move forward.

Where things sit presently:
Cooling system is drained and radiator is out. Upper intake is removed. Chain is bolted to the 4 outer corner holes for mounting the upper intake. I figure if I mess up these threads, at least they're easy to get to for doing a helicoil or similar.
Bellhousing bolts are out. One was missing. Starter is out.
One bolt/stud is undone on one cat. The other 3 bolts are still attached, to be wrestled with tomorrow. The 2-cats-per-side setup makes this somehow even more frustrating and awkward than the older 1-cat-per-side setup.
Transmission jack is pushed up against the transmission.
Debating undoing the converter bolts so the flexplate comes free, or pulling the converter out with the engine - latter makes a big mess, former is more labour-intensive.
I should note, some firsts here for me. I have never pulled one of these engines and have never separated any automatic transmission from any engine.

Time for bed.

[kishy]

I borrowed back my engine hoist from my friend, and set about the oil pan replacement.
Car on ramps. Engine mounts unbolted. Engine hoist hooked to a chain bolted down to a couple of intake manifold bolts (but they're upper to lower bolts, which thread into aluminum).
Pan is off. Gasket is a newer 1-piece silicone rubber part, so someone has been here before. edit: after further reflection, I think that's actually RTV.
Unbolted the oil pump pickup, it's sitting loose in the pan.
Engine is up as far as I dare with that chain and those lift points, but it just isn't enough room.
I've seen references to people doing this with the engine in the car, but I have serious doubts it's going to work.
There's a thread on CVN where it is mentioned that it can be done in-vehicle, but all the relevant detail about how to achieve it is missing. https://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/...t&Number=16262

Obviously, need more lift, but trying not to destroy a bunch of stuff in the course of getting there, and I don't like my lift point at all. I just don't know of anything better.

Not really keen on separating the engine and transmission at this time, so not really sure what I want to do now. Probably going back out to stare at it for a while.



(the hoist is no longer at the side, the actual lifting was done from the front)

[kishy]

Tonight, I tidied up the garage from the Focus projects, got that one back outside, and started looking at some parts for two upcoming 91 projects:

Window motors. Both front windows are dead. Both have been junkyard swapped at least 3 times in my ownership of the car. The mid-89-91 window motors are, in my experience, trash. The rear doors currently contain the weird Dorman multi-vehicle motors, which are slow and underpowered, but work.

I have a couple smooth running motors that just need gear rehab, so I should be able to piece something together once I find my bag of the gear plugs.



Oil pan. I don't want to poke the pan and possibly cause it to fail, but looking at it, I really don't trust it to go back on the road. That rust goes deep and a lot of layers have flaked.

When I bought the fancy chrome transmission pan, I also bought a fancy chrome oil pan. I have an oil pan gasket in the tote of gaskets. No real reason not to move forward with that. Will need to borrow back my engine crane from the friend it's on loan to, but he confirms it's easy to get to where it is.

Some considerations: I had purchased the version with the hole for the oil level warning light switch. It looks like 10-years-ago-me planned ahead and found a low oil switch to put in that hole. I think my thought process had been using the now-disused oil pressure light with the float, but now having more knowledge/context than I did back then, I know there's a module that drives the oil level light, and I suspect there may be a bit of nuisance flickering if I just wire it directly as the oil level naturally fluctuates and splashes around.

Damn.. That looks like ~$1,000 worth of labor! If I wore a hat, it would be off for you. It's nice when after a bunch of work there's a very noticeable improvement.

So you said "R" on the temp gauge is roughly 210 or 220F? I never knew that, but will try and keep it handy amidst the bowl of soggy Cheerios that is my brain. However, I wouldn't expect the average person to know that. For me, numbers are important as a frame of reference. They let a person know just how serious the temperature situation is and if they need to react. For all I knew, the red portion of the temp gauge could've been 220.

Shrug...it's a fair bit of work, sure, but I made a decision recently that I want some more seat time in this car, and if it sits forever without getting the work done, that'll never happen. Digging into it and re-familiarizing myself with this car, it really doesn't need anything I can't do, except the body work. With my present skill set, anyway.

I seem to remember R being the normal spot it hung out at. Not exactly sure, but the basic idea is that if you know where it normally points, and you know the cooling system is working properly when the gauge is pointing there, it doesn't matter if it's numbers or letters or colours or little pictures of cute animals, really. Which I guess is an argument in favour of warning lights, but the temperature that triggers our cars' lights (260ish?) is so high that you're already beyond danger by the time it turns on.

Not sure if I've actually driven a "by the book" calibrated AOD. Most of them shift early and mushy, and I've never known if thats just the stock setting, something that happens with age and cable stretch, or someone's bad job of adjusting it. I crank the pressure so they downshift with some pedal and aren't in overdrive before I hit 40. Even without adding any horsepower, having a trans that responds to throttle input and doesn't lug the engine makes it a whole lot faster.

This will be in OD by the time you hit 40...km/h. Not cool. Don't like it. Shifts have some feel, and it doesn't feel slippy, but it's a total slug unless you're really into the pedal to keep it in a lower gear.

I let that Mark VII I had for a while shift late & hard as that's the general consensus around here about AOD's. It smoked the OD band several months later. Meanwhile, the AOD in my Town Car, which I set to factory specs some 30 or 40k miles ago is still going strong as ever. If I'm barely on the throttle, it will shift into OD around 40 or 42mph. If I don't want OD, I leave the lever in D. Downshifts fine as needed.

There's a balance to be found, but the basic idea is that a firmer shift is a faster shift. The sooner you engage a gear, the less time the parts spend slipping. A soft shift is soft because there's overlap where parts are, in essence, working against each other.

I simply won't use OD unless I know I'm going to be cruising at a speed appropriate to stay in it. Letting it go in and out as TV dictates in regular traffic is a recipe for a lot of wear, and by many accounts the AOD has an OD band that is undersized to begin with so there isn't a whole lot of wear possible before it's toast.

[gadget73]

The trans in the white car has 235k on it. I recently swapped a valve body with a shift kit in it, plus its running more TV pressure. The valve body swap was mostly done to fix a problem with a dragging forward clutch. If the trans in that car pukes I'm blaming it more on the stuck check ball than me screwing with it. Besides, with a quarter million miles its more amazing that it works than if it failed.

[sly]

When I had the boxes... I always set the AOD to shift a little later (tighten up the TV cable about 1-2mm) but not late enough to be harsh. It was enough to feel the engagement. Never had any trans issues after that and put over 60K miles on that after initial rebuild/upgrade to wide ratio gears in the 88.