My 1987 Two Door Crown Victoria AKA THE BROWN BLOB

[Bobcat]

Make sure you have a steel distributor gear...

Ask me what happens with a steel cam vs a cast gear..

[87gtVIC]

Spout connector unplugged too? Just trying to cover all the basics.

When we were attaempting to start the vehicle the spout was still PLUGGED IN. When changing the timing this should be pulled right?

If its got 24# injectors and doesn't know about it, its gonna run pretty awful. I think I might stick the Quarterhorse on there and change just the injector value for now, leaving the tune otherwise stock. That would at least take one variable out of the equation. If you can load the transfer curve for the MAF you are using, that would also be helpful.

Lame as it sounds, the original 1992 MAF from John's car runs spectacularly on my car. Its a goofy small MAF and it might be choking things, but it seems to mate up very nicely with the un-tuned ECM.

Noted. The quarterhorse came loaded with a tune on it. I had a LONG list to fill out for the tuner with many specific so he could get it as close as possible the first time around. Datalogging after that. The tune will be loaded in its entirety. This will cover the MAF's transfer table functions as well as the bigger injectors.

Pop's is old school and is concerned that SO many things were changed on the car this past winter he wanted to eliminate one variable (the tune) and try to get it to run without it in some fashion. I made note that it may not run good with the tune or without it. So far as of now it is not running without the tune. He did suggest installing the quarterhorse as we were kinda stumped.

The sucking (to some metal to metal meshing noise) is what concerned us.

Make sure you have a steel distributor gear...

Ask me what happens with a steel cam vs a cast gear..

The dizzy is out now as we needed room to loosen the nut on the heater hard line pipe. Will check it out once I get back home.


Thanks all.

[DerekTheGreat]

Best of luck David! Following thread, anxious for good news and further updates...

[Bobcat]

When we were attaempting to start the vehicle the spout was still PLUGGED IN. When changing the timing this should be pulled right?



Noted. The quarterhorse came loaded with a tune on it. I had a LONG list to fill out for the tuner with many specific so he could get it as close as possible the first time around. Datalogging after that. The tune will be loaded in its entirety. This will cover the MAF's transfer table functions as well as the bigger injectors.

Pop's is old school and is concerned that SO many things were changed on the car this past winter he wanted to eliminate one variable (the tune) and try to get it to run without it in some fashion. I made note that it may not run good with the tune or without it. So far as of now it is not running without the tune. He did suggest installing the quarterhorse as we were kinda stumped.

You unplug the spout when setting base timing. It keeps the ignition from advancing while you set it.


With a stock tune, It could run. My 351 ran like dog shit but still ran with a stock A9S for a couple days before I had the chip to put in.

I wouldn't have put on all of the accessories on the first fire up.. I would've put on the bare minimum so that I could get it to run. Check your grounds, sounds dumb but I've been swindled by those little black bastards before..

[Brown_Muscle]

Isn't having time to just think about what all the problems could be, without the ability to test them the worst?! Try not to stress about it too much (I would be), it's probably something simple.

If you need help with some tuning basics just let John and I know, I can give you my phone number. Reading through online sources can get confusing at times, it's so much easier to ask a real person in real time what to do.

[86VickyLX]

Reading through online sources can get confusing at times, it's so much easier to ask a real person in real time what to do.

This.

But spout should be unplugged as it's constantly changing the timing even as it's cranking.

[lincolnlarry]

Listened to the video a couple of times I think the noise sounds exactly like the starter not disengaging. I know things sound different in person so I don't want to bet on it.

[His Royal Ghostliness]

This.

^^^ Yeah this guy ought to know about over-the-phone long-distance diagnostics, think we once spent like over an hour trying to figure out why the heck his starter would not disengage, and what a good alternative to the craptastic aftermarket direct replacement for the factory part would be (btw the suggested solution is also exactly how my hydro pump is powered). And I'm bringing that up because of this:

Listened to the video a couple of times I think the noise sounds exactly like the starter not disengaging. I know things sound different in person so I don't want to bet on it.

This could be a "sticky" (self-latching) solenoid on the starter itself (remedied by replacing the starter), or the same type of issue with the big relay on the fender. What happens if the engine is cranked over with the fuel pump shut off (and thus no actual engine light-off possible), when the key is released does the starter stop doing its thing immediately?

[87gtVIC]

First cranks in the video were with power cut to the coil. No odd sound after letting the key go.

Battery voltage gradually went down after attempting to start the damned thing. Maybe the fender mounted relay or the new mini starter relay took a beating and now want to play all the time?

I'd have to test things out again once I get back home. I also have the OLD starter around to test things out with though i'd have to change a bunch of wiring as I made things fit to different places up under the hood and at the start itself.

I appreciate all of the assistance.

^^^ Yeah this guy ought to know about over-the-phone long-distance diagnostics, think we once spent like over an hour trying to figure out why the heck his starter would not disengage, and what a good alternative to the craptastic aftermarket direct replacement for the factory part would be (btw the suggested solution is also exactly how my hydro pump is powered). And I'm bringing that up because of this:


This could be a "sticky" (self-latching) solenoid on the starter itself (remedied by replacing the starter), or the same type of issue with the big relay on the fender. What happens if the engine is cranked over with the fuel pump shut off (and thus no actual engine light-off possible), when the key is released does the starter stop doing its thing immediately?

[His Royal Ghostliness]

With mini-starters the fender relay is just to kick the solenoid on the starter itself, right? Then it's likely not really taking beating at all, as the solenoid pulls way less juice than the motor itself, the power feed for which bypasses the fender relay altogether.

But that noise to me definitely sounds like gear whine. Gear-drive timing sets make it, screw-drive blowers, some manual transmissions, etc. Coould it be once the "bendix" wheel on the starter has engaged the flexplate ring gear it cannot disengage from it even tho the starter motor itself doesn't spin? Like, something wrong with the solenoid assembly that throws the "bendix" wheel out, broken spring maybe that causes it to not return all the way? Or, something even more stupid - the wheel is engaged all the time even when solenoid is actually retracted, which can happen if you're using a starter for a stick-shift transmission... Check the part number you got vs. what it should be, or better yet grab a factory-replacement starter for a '91 Vic or GMQ from your nearest parts store and compare it to what you have.

[DerekTheGreat]

Just a thought and probably a long shot but about the slow crank issue.. Did you verify that your base timing isn't too far advanced? The other weekend I swapped out the distributor on our GMC and my signature move of jumping timing by a tooth struck again. Thing would barely crank and didn't fire because of it.

[87gtVIC]

With mini-starters the fender relay is just to kick the solenoid on the starter itself, right? Then it's likely not really taking beating at all, as the solenoid pulls way less juice than the motor itself, the power feed for which bypasses the fender relay altogether.

But that noise to me definitely sounds like gear whine. Gear-drive timing sets make it, screw-drive blowers, some manual transmissions, etc. Coould it be once the "bendix" wheel on the starter has engaged the flexplate ring gear it cannot disengage from it even tho the starter motor itself doesn't spin? Like, something wrong with the solenoid assembly that throws the "bendix" wheel out, broken spring maybe that causes it to not return all the way? Or, something even more stupid - the wheel is engaged all the time even when solenoid is actually retracted, which can happen if you're using a starter for a stick-shift transmission... Check the part number you got vs. what it should be, or better yet grab a factory-replacement starter for a '91 Vic or GMQ from your nearest parts store and compare it to what you have.

This is the part I have: https://lmr.com/item/PA-1806/79-95-M...Torque-Starter

Just a thought and probably a long shot but about the slow crank issue.. Did you verify that your base timing isn't too far advanced? The other weekend I swapped out the distributor on our GMC and my signature move of jumping timing by a tooth struck again. Thing would barely crank and didn't fire because of it.

We believe everything was stabbed correctly. All will be checked again when reinstalling it.

[Bobcat]

Did the engine turn over easily when you got it? Does the battery indeed have something like 12.6v? Make sure all wires going to the starter and solenoid are in good shape, those ground off the tranny case so as a precaution I'd make sure you have a good engine ground strap on it.

[lincolnlarry]

Don't forget the high torque starter WILL crank slower then the original. Just like downshifting on a bike to get up a hill. Trading off rpms for more torque.

[87gtVIC]

Did the engine turn over easily when you got it? Does the battery indeed have something like 12.6v? Make sure all wires going to the starter and solenoid are in good shape, those ground off the tranny case so as a precaution I'd make sure you have a good engine ground strap on it.

The engine required a half inch ratchet and someone holding the engine stand to turn it over

Wires at the stater solenoid on both the fender and at the starter are clean and secure.

Grounds are at passengers side front corner of block underneath number one cylinder as well as passengers side cylinder head above the transmission