The new Thunderbird.

[grandpaslincoln]

Hmmmmmm

[1987cp]

Would a 460 actually be worth the weight and extra hassle if you're staying under 500hp?

[Pirate]

Would a 460 actually be worth the weight and extra hassle if you're staying under 500hp?

No.

However, I want some snappy, low-end grunt. 302's don't provide that, exactly. However, I do have some ideas as to how to implement that without adding a giant big-block under the hood....

[1987cp]

lol - like a turnkey Paxton Novi package, right?

[Lincolnmania]

if you want snappy low end grunt, put a lopo in it

[1987cp]

if you want snappy low end grunt, put a lopo in it

A Summit 4400-cammed 351 is also great for that!

[Archangel]

4BT, that will give you all the low-end torque you want with awesome fuel economy to boot. Good luck squeezing one in there tho

[Pirate]

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/pts/1138873552.html

This looks mighty interestin'....

[70torino429]

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/pts/1138873552.html

This looks mighty interestin'....

that does look interesting. a 351w would have alot more low end than a 302 as well, and wouldnt take up the space a 460 would. does the 351c and 351w mount up the same?

[Pirate]

that does look interesting. a 351w would have alot more low end than a 302 as well, and wouldnt take up the space a 460 would. does the 351c and 351w mount up the same?

Yes, they bolt up to the same motor mounts, and have the same bellhousing pattern. The only issue is finding a fox/MN12-compatible oil pan....you have to go with a Milodon or similar rear-sump pan to make a 351C fit. Headers will be a pain in the ass, also....the guy with the 351C is interested in my 2002 Honda TRX400EX as a straight-across trade....I'm just not sure I want to get rid of my ATV as of yet.

I just got hired at a local NAPA parts store...and they have a full machine shop....and I mean full. With access to the machine shop at somewhat-discounted prices....hell, even a long-rod 351W might be an option .

[1987cp]

I just got hired at a local NAPA parts store...and they have a full machine shop....and I mean full. With access to the machine shop at somewhat-discounted prices....hell, even a long-rod 351W might be an option .

Ooh, neat. Getting hired at a NAPA seems to take some doing ... granted, your years of parts sales experience must be a huge plus. Just figures that you would be 2000 miles away from me. :p

[70torino429]

if pirate worked at my local napa i sure would go there alot more often lol. the napa here isnt really on the ball that much. i called a day in advance to see if they had a radiator for my car and they said they had it in stock so i said ok ill be there tomorrow morning. so when i go down there i wait for a half hour as they go looking for it. they also have no idea on anything pertaining to performance building, as when i tried to have a discussion with them on choosing fuel injectors. something pirate could deffinately help them out with here lol. anyways im done with my rant. maybe someday ill be thousands of miles away from home and stop into the local napa lol, wish they had a full machine shop here. good luck on the new job anyhow.

[Pirate]

Update: Not much news here....but I have finalized the engine combination that will be used in the T-bird.

I'm building a long-rod 302.

Specifics:

5.4" connecting rods

forged KB dome pistons.....I will be reworking the domes to reduce the compression ratio, but using Exploder heads, my goal is to try to run around a 10.5:1-10.8:1 ratio on 92-octane pump gas. There is a possibility that I might upgrade to a set of AFR165 heads for this engine, and if I do, then I'm going to rework the domes to produce at least 11:1-11.5:1 compression with the aluminum heads.

I will also be doing some 'skunkwork' stuff to the engine that I might talk about one of these days....or maybe not. I'm not going to get into too much detail about what this 'stuff' is....especially if it doesn't work, lol.

Intake: modified Exploder unit.

Cam: I'm really wanting to stick with a stock HO cam, but a TFS stage I, or something similar might also be tried....however, I don't want to kill off low-end grunt. One other note: This cam will be degreed in, and possibly advanced 4 degrees....

Heads: I'm really wanting to experiment with the Explorer set of heads, and I have some naughty ideas for what I'm going to do with them. Concerning what I'm going to do....once again, you'll find out sometime soon, or then again, maybe you won't, lol. The basic plan is to clean them up, and install a set of super-light CompCams beehive springs and retainers, something good for maybe .520" lift....as I'm not going to be using a cam with huge lift. Should I get lucky enough to score some lightweight valves to replace the stockers....but for now, the stockers are going to be reused.

Main girdle. Yes, it's not needed....but I'm going to run one, anyway.

Rest of the induction: Exploder injectors, Ford Motorsport 65mm TB, 155lph fuel pump, 70mm MAF from a 1994 T-bird.

Ignition system: I already have a new Ford dizzy for it, and MSD components.

ECM: I'm going to rewire for a 1994-1995 Mustang GT 5-speed ECM. This eliminates some of the surging problems that I'm going to run into since I will no longer have a locking torque converter. In addition, only one tuner that I know of possesses tuning values for the T-bird ECM....and he lives somewhere on the East coast. The Mustang ECM will be much easier to tune...and if it fails, I won't be up shit creek. Right now, I'm sitting with the stock T-bird ECM, and if it ever fails....there aren't any replacements.

Transmission: I'm probably going to stick with an AOD for now....but one that I've modified, in addition to sticking in my last B&M 2400rpm Holeshot convertor. . I'm still looking at the possibility of going with a 5-speed, however. I'm going to use something T-5 based, as I hate the way the truck-based Mazda M5R2 unit shifts that comes in the Super Coupe....notchy as hell, and almost impossible to not miss a gear when rowing the shifter in a furious manner.

More to follow.

[Pirate]

Non-update: I've been B.Sing with Mikey (MrLTD) concerning doing something different with the proposed engine combination; I'm a bit scared of trying to run 10.5:1+ compression with iron heads and not-quite-that-much-longer connecting rods, so I've sold the P heads in favor of running flat-top forged long-rod pistons, and using a big-chamber set of heads (Regular GT40's or World Sr. heads) to allow for the implementation of a supercharger, preferably an M90 with possibly a modded blower case (MPX, for example) to feed a blowthrough box (like the Paxton or Vortech)....and a carb. If all goes well, and this stuff actually gets installed, I credit Mikey for the idea.


If it all blows up....of course, it's all his fault.


lol.


You may now resume your regular programming.

[Pirate]

During this long coalescence, in which the T-bird sits idle, with me doing nothing to it right now (I don't have time to work on it), I've done some thinking about what I want to do with the car.

I'm not making any changes right now, but a phone call from a friend of mine in Portland got me to thinking about what I want to do with this car. Whatever happens now, I'm shitcanning the EFI, and after pricing out a replacement ABS brake master cylinder, I'm going to be looking hardcore into converting to non-ABS brakes, which isn't too terribly difficult with this car, since earlier MN12 t-birds came with non-ABS brakes.

The friend has a particular short block in his possession. It's what's left of an engine that he built for a 1962 Galaxie drag car he's owned since high school, but only made one and a half passes on the completed engine, and drove the car maybe a total of 70 miles, as at the 660-ft mark, the valvetrain literally exploded. Nothing happened to the basic long block, but he was disgusted with the breakage, and the 4 mpg he got due to the absolutely sloppy C6 he had behind the engine. He did squeeze off a high-eleven 1/4 mile time on the first run, however.

He still has the short block, sealed in a bag. It was bored .030 over, blueprinted (zero deck, etc), balanced, forged pistons, and has a rather rare set of unobtanium connecting rods (I will identify them later), in addition to still having a custom-ground flat-tappet cam installed in the block. The oiling passages were opened up, and the lifter valley was smoothed out with a grinder and painted over.

He's not in any hurry to sell it. He's tried to unload it for the last decade....but even though it's a screaming deal, nobody's ever shown any interest.

And I'm thinking of maybe trying to pick it up from him next spring, and installing it in the Bird. Since it's a 1960's engine....and due to my insisting on getting rid of all of the EFI garbage, my thought was to have 1990's looks on the outside, and having the view under the hood be straight out of 1969, with an added bonus: A vintage set of 'Thunderbird' valve covers from an early 1960's Thunderbird.

It's entirely possible to make this engine fit. D&D performance makes headers and an oil pan to fit this engine into a Fox body, and with a steering-shaft modification, almost any Fox body header fits in my car. I can even get a specific bellhousing to fit this engine to one of my AOD's I have here, that way I can have a modern overdrive transmission, and get decent mileage out on the highway.

Nothing is set in stone, but I'm growing rather weary of looking at the sleepy 302 under the hood, and the weak-assed fresh 306 sitting two feet away from it. It puts me to sleep thinking of how gutless either engine will perform in the car, and any mods I perform will only degrade the low-end grunt performance. The 306 would be a great motor for a completely stock vehicle, or a light-weight Mustang....but since this car is a tank, and I'm really trying to keep this car as simple as possible technology-wise, I'm putting the brakes to any supercharger or turbo idea that I might have had.

The engine that I'm looking at? I'm not going to reveal fully what it is, but the casting number of the block corresponds to a particular year Mustang, with a particular engine option that would require a particular hood scoop with a badge saying 'Cobra Jet' on the shaker scoop, and '--- Cobra Jet' on the non-shaker scoop....with the short block having been upgraded to 'Super' status and having 427 LeMans connecting rods in the bottom end....

Nothing is set in stone, but this particular option is looking rather interesting, as it gives me something fun to look forward to doing with the car. The way it is right now, with the small-block crap that's under the hood the way the car sits, I just want to sell the Bird and have some garage space back again.

No, this engine isn't the best option out there, nor is it the most potent powerplant available. However, it's definitely comparable to a 408-stroker windsor, and it's definitely a hell of a lot sexier looking. The rear IRS can't handle a gigantic engine anyway, but I'm confident I can squeeze an easy 450 hp out of this motor if I assemble it with the right parts.

But popping the hood and revealing a muscular throwback to the late 1960's would definitely produce a double-take or three.

Small block Ford engines really do suck ass, don't they?

I'm not doing anything else, and I only live once, right?