Propane/Butane as an R143a replacement

[RobClark]

Team,

Unlike you lucky folk in USA, we (the general public in Australia) are not allowed to buy refill cans of R134a and recharge our aircons ourselves.

And even worse than that - if you ask the licensed aircon shop to recharge your car, he is not allowed to by law!!!!! The Gov't logic is:
- Car has gas leak
- So must 1st fix the leak, then refill
- So - evacuate and recover the gas (expensive)
- Fix Leak (always expensive)
- refill with complete new charge of gas.

And of course they never fix the leak - so you are back next year.

So I did a bit of research and these folks are selling A propane/Butane (LPG mix to us) gas called HR12.

http://www.hychill.com.au/

Everything I read on the www says it is BETTER than R134a...and as it has zero effect on the ozone hole - anyone can buy it. I have even read that Taxi drivers just use LPG to refill their aircons here.

And don't just read their glowing reports .... google for HyChill or HR12 and see what users say.

Anyway - is this thing common in the US?

[gadget73]

It should work, technically just about any gas that can be turned to a liquid using the pressures in an AC system will do the trick. Early refrigerators used anhydrous ammonia among other things. The bigger issue with using propane or butane is that its flammable. In the event of an accident that punctures the condenser, you discharge a couple pounds of the stuff and it could be an issue. The slow leakage is also an issue, it would really not be fun if it leaked inside the car, and you blew yourself up lighting a cigarette. I think thats why its not actually legal here in the US, though I've heard of some people doing it as a shadetree fix.

The only other real issue I'd see with this is what oil does it circulate? R12 used mineral oil, R134 usually uses either PAG in a native 134 system, or ester oil in a conversion, since it blends with the mineral oil. As long as the LP gas will move some sort of oil through the system, it ought to work OK.

[85crownHPP]

This is very illegal here, since it will make your car blow up in a crash, just like in the movies!
A/C shops (good ones) wont touch any car that test positive for any hydrocarbons (combustible gasses)... they have little tester things that screw onto the service port, and test for sealants too (also bad)

PS
but yes it works very well as a refrigerant i hear

[86VickyLX]

Hey, would they um confiscate shit bought outside Australia? Like if someone sold you some cans of refridgerent from the US.

[p71towny]

Wildfires + Flammable A/C system = FAIL

[GoodSamaritan]

Actually I have used a home brew version of this for several years now.
It works great. (Costs me about $0.25-$100 to gas up my ac system. )

I have also used the commercially available 79% lpg 21% isobutane mix. (it also has a flame retardant mixed in. (about 10-20$ per can, and it usually takes 2 cans.)

It does cool out better than r134a. Especially in older cars designed for r12.

You don't need to change the oil in your ac system.




If you want to draw a vacum on your ac to get all the air, and moisture out of it before putting the new stuff in, drop me a line. I'll tell you about my 5$ vacuum pump.

The funny thing is, the U.S. department of transportation, ok'd the stuff in the early 90's, for use in passenger vehicles. The EPA banned it's use. I always thought there was something fishy about that.

As for movie style explosions...
It actually takes very little of the stuff by volume (about half that of r134a). I would actually be more concerned with the gasoline in the car than the propane. Also if the passenger compartment was damaged to the point that all the freon dumped out inside the car, the windows are going to be long gone. Even if there was the correct air/fuel ratio to ignite it, and a spark at just the right moment, it is going to burn itself out in about as long as it takes to say "poof"

The stuff has been available here in the US for years under one brand name or another. (there is some loophole where they can sell it) To date I have yet to hear on a single case of the ac system catching fire, or exploding.

[crown vic muscle]

BOOM!!!

[RobClark]

Vicky: Yes - it is illegal for me to import cans of R134a.....if they catch you

As for the explosion point.
All our taxis run around here with big tanks of LPG with pipes running off to the engine bay. That is a potential bomb .... but does not seem to be a problem.

I agree that the AC gas is at the condenser in front of the radiator - ie 1st to get hit in a bingle - but the quantity of gas in an AC system is quite small so it will burn but not explode.

Anyway - My Towncar is bigger than anything else on the road here - so I will probably not even feel it if I hit a Daihatsu ! Certainly will not scratch my bumper.

[RobClark]

Follow up ... installed

Well the nice man came with his van and vacuumed out the R134a in my wife's Audi (600 gram charge of R134a) and replaced with 200g of HR12 (50% Propane/50% Butane) mix (plus some PAG oil).

Cools beautifully.

And the nice thing is I can buy cans of propane/butane mix here at the hardware store (used for those flame torch things). And even nicer ... the old recharge kit (which I bought in the US years ago when R11 was readily available) fits onto the can and with a few orings .. I even got a seal on the can!...

So ... bottom line is that I can now legally re-charge my wife's AC gas here!!

[p71towny]

Good to hear! Hank Hill has a new propane venue to sell now.

[GoodSamaritan]

Well the nice man came with his van and vacuumed out the R134a in my wife's Audi (600 gram charge of R134a) and replaced with 200g of HR12 (50% Propane/50% Butane) mix (plus some PAG oil).

Cools beautifully.

And the nice thing is I can buy cans of propane/butane mix here at the hardware store (used for those flame torch things). And even nicer ... the old recharge kit (which I bought in the US years ago when R11 was readily available) fits onto the can and with a few orings .. I even got a seal on the can!...

So ... bottom line is that I can now legally re-charge my wife's AC gas here!!

What did I tell you? The stuff works perfectly.