School me on some car audio basics, please.

[kishy]

Hi friends,

I'd like to do a modest, budget, non-invasive sound system upgrade on one of my cars, and if I'm happy with the results, replicate something similar in others over time. Unfortunately, exactly what I want to do is not a very well-formed thought at this stage, and I would blame that on lack of understanding. I am losing interest in keeping the factory original systems as-built and am not particularly interested in "OE+" upgrade paths to better stock parts which will still be dependent on availability of aging parts.

So let's make an example of my 84 Town Car. It has the non-JBL premium sound system: 4-preset-button cassette radio, the football-shaped amp, and 6 speakers.

Is there any value to be gained by simply replacing the speakers but no other components? If yes, what properties/specifications am I looking for in speakers to perform reasonably with the other stock components?

Let's say I replace the radio with this one: Blaupunkt Milano 200 BT (https://blaupunkt.com/product/milano-200-bt/)
This decision would be based entirely on its tame appearance well-suited to an older car - I have no doubt there are better products on the market, but how it looks is critically important, and this one is the most affordable of all the "retro car radios" I've been able to locate, and I like its feature set. 3.5mm is mandatory so the multitude of options which exist but lack 3.5 are off the table.
Am I correct in thinking that, with 40W peak but 20W continuous, an amplifier would be of value here? Can the factory amp do that job? What even is the wattage of the factory amp? Or would I be better off just using speakers well-paired to the output of the bare radio than trying to use the factory amp, if I am resistant to any sort of aftermarket amp?
What speakers would be advisable to pair with the bare Milano radio? And if different, what speakers would be advisable to pair with the Milano radio plus the factory amp?

I'm far from an audiophile but would appreciate...I'm not sure exactly how to phrase it. Somewhat "fuller sound" that stays fuller/richer sounding into higher volume levels than what the stock stuff delivers. At low volume levels I'm content with how the factory stuff sounds, while acknowledging it isn't great.

Your recommendations are appreciated.

[Arquemann]

Cannot say much about whole systems, but the 6-speaker premium sound got a whole lot better when I just replaced the door speakers. I intend to replace the others soon too, and thought about modding a modern amp in the factory one's place. Though the aging head unit seems to have made its condition clear to me...

IIRC the factory 4-channel amp is rated at 25 watts at 8 ohms per channel. Or maybe it was 4 ohms. 8 ohms sounds about right for being old as balls.
Indeed the low power is what causes the "flat" sound at lower volume. Considering many modern head units themselves come with 4x50W channels, the factory amp wont get you too far.

And instead of the Milano, may I suggest Blaupunkt's Stockholm or Skagen models? They look about the same, are in about the same price point, have BT & AUX, but they have 7 colour options, instead of just white as in the Milano.
Hamburg, Frankfurt and Bremen are even more period-looking with great features, but are much more $$$, especially the Bremen, which is kinda the king of retro radios.

EDIT: RetroSound makes stuff for box Panthers now, pricy as usual. Here's one for the LTC:

https://www.retromanufacturing.com/collections/vehicle-search/products/1981-87-lincoln-town-car-retroradio?variant=42656624705692

[kishy]

I actually ran through the entire list of Blaupunkt (and Continental but I've been warned they're garbage) retro-themed radios.
The one that really captured my heart was the Hamburg - I was an avid Winamp user at its peak - but no front panel 3.5 is a dealbreaker (and is also the case for the Stockholm and Skagen).
Second in line might be the Bremen (except the red is a bit much) or Frankfurt (which looks a lot like a dead Lexington that I have somewhere).
But 3.5 being on the front panel is a preference.
Regardless, I checked every single model and of the ones with front panel aux, the Milano was available by far the cheapest from a UK car audio supplier on eBay, and one is in transit currently. Whether I use it for this project remains to be determined, I don't have so much into it financially that I couldn't resell if I decide I hate it.
As far as green goes, I find it far more annoying for it to be "green" but not "the right green" to match the rest, so I'd just as soon go with the white backlight. A perfect matching green would be nice though. I do have a Pioneer DEH-1900MP in my '83 and it is "the right green", but a newer Pioneer in my '91 turned out to be "not the right green", and I sort of resent it for that. Both of those vehicles have their factory speakers.

The relationship between watts and ohms in audio goes completely over my head. I have absolutely zero understanding of how sound works at all...zero understanding of what one watt represents in audio, or why there would ever in history have been any speaker with differing resistance from any other speaker. So that's where this thread is coming from.

Also I have no idea what they're on about but that radio doesn't look anything like any of the radios any of the Box Panther Lincolns had. Panthers did get a "3 hole" radio (the rectangle with two knobs) in various years but Lincoln never did, as I recall, it was always just one rectangle, in early years a nonstandard sort of DIN-and-a-half-ish size which reduced to 1DIN around maybe 83ish.

[DerekTheGreat]

I consider myself to be a full blown audioholic, you should see the setup in my living room. That being said, I really don't care about car audio any more outside of just making it work. What I will say is that yes, replace the speakers with the Ford-JBL offerings available as well as the head unit. A single din Kenwood Excelon should do you proper. If you want to go further than that, upgrade the amplifier to a 4 or 5 channel unit if you'd like to run a subwoofer. I think the '84 Townies would be a PITA- you'd have to run speaker wires to all the speakers. My '88 was much easier- All I had to do was run RCA cables from the head unit back to the 5 channel JBL amplifier I put back there as well as a power cable. I also put a huge capacitor back there for the subwoofer. It's the best system I've had in a car, but one I'd never repeat given how crappy the returns are on car audio vs home audio.

[DerekTheGreat]

...The relationship between watts and ohms in audio goes completely over my head. I have absolutely zero understanding of how sound works at all...zero understanding of what one watt represents in audio, or why there would ever in history have been any speaker with differing resistance from any other speaker. So that's where this thread is coming from.

Doesn't really matter in car audio. What you care about is finding the most sensitive speakers. Sensitivity is denoted something like this: 1 watt @ 1 meter. Which means they fed the speaker 1 watt or something like 2.83 volts and measured the output in SPL at 1 meter away. Unfortunately, speakers aren't linear in that department- so throwing 10 watts at that same speaker doesn't net you ten times the SPL. At a given speaker's output, it takes double the power to increase that output by 3dB. So say the speaker is rated at 94 dB, 1W @ 1M. 2 watts would get you 97dB, 4 would get you 100dB, 8 103dB, 16 106dB (generally the limit of most internal stereo amplifiers). 106dB isn't loud at all when you're cruising down the road or drive loud shitboxes like I do. So with all that BS said, 100 watts RMS per channel is a decent standard for an amplifier. 50 would even be OK. For a subwoofer though? Subs are highly inefficient (sensitivity ratings in the 80's) and bass requires a lot of power for woofer control- lest you want to hear the voice coil bottoming out on the pole piece. Depending on the subwoofer, 300 or 500 watts should be sufficient. That's the point where impedance matters. It's a general rule of thumb that if the amplifier is stout enough, you'll double it's output by going from a 4ohm woofer to a 2ohm. Cut the resistance in half, double the output- sort of and in a perfect amplifier world. Not all amplifiers are happy with 2 ohm loads though.

[gadget73]

The stock speakers were generally not great 40 years ago, and time hasn't improved that situation. There are definitely improvements to be had with just new speakers. If you do upgrade the rest you probably want new speakers anyway so if you're considering an incremental approach I'd start here.

The stock football amp wiring setup is not particularly compatible with modern stuff, but if you do an amp in the trunk its not the end of the world. RCA cables to the amp, and you can actually use the factory wiring from the trunk up to the front speakers. Its 4 wires, + and - for each side like modern stuff needs. The rear speakers will wire directly to the amp. I'm using the original wires in my 86 in this way, the factory harness is connected using a connector clipped from a junk football amp and a short run of wire from that connector over to the amplifier.

It gets more complex if you want to just have the radio feed the speakers and not involve an amplifier. The run to the rear speakers from the radio should be usable. That ought to be 4 wires direct from radio to speakers. The front speakers you'll need to run from the speakers to the radio. Can cheat here a bit and tie into the dash speakers only and let the existing wires handle the run from dash to door. The amp in the trunk will need to be unplugged.


Avoid the Stockholm, you might get the Syndrome and start liking it even if you shouldn't.

[sly]

It's the problem with the wiring. I think the non-JBL premium setup is a common ground to the amp and then two wires to all the speakers If it has the same setup as the 82 Mark VI... you might be able to bypass the amp easy since the output from the head unit matches the return from the amp and you can just plug into the speaker wires directly there in the dash. It was a complete add-on harness that just plugged into the stock head unit and looped back to the speaker connector (full 8 wire). This can be removed later at your leisure. If it's the common ground setup to the amp (5-wire) it'll require a bypass harness to run 8 wires to the speaker harness at the amp to bypass it to use the factory speaker wiring... or just run new speaker wires from the dash to the speakers. Replacing the stock speakers with some budget Kenwoods would probably sort most of the sound issues from the old cones. I suggest Kenwood over Pioneer due to better bass reproduction (gets lower) and still hits the same highs. Infinity makes really good speakers as well, but costs more. Pioneer are still better than the stock stuff though.

[Arquemann]

Good thing we have DerekTheGreat as our in-house audio expert! The ohms, spls and floating grounds go over my head too, but I certainly do enjoy full and vibrant sound. Especially in a quiet car the (lack of) sound quality is very noticeable.

Also I have no idea what they're on about but that radio doesn't look anything like any of the radios any of the Box Panther Lincolns had. Panthers did get a "3 hole" radio (the rectangle with two knobs) in various years but Lincoln never did, as I recall, it was always just one rectangle, in early years a nonstandard sort of DIN-and-a-half-ish size which reduced to 1DIN around maybe 83ish.

I think I had an early box LTD in mind when I saw that retrosound unit and thought that it looks about right. Now I checked what they show for an '85 MGM, and it doesn't quite look right either.

https://www.retromanufacturing.com/products/1979-85-mercury-grand-marquis-newport-1-5-din-direct-fit-radio?variant=42656882360476

BTW, the Bremen, Hamburg and Frankfurt have RGB colour, so I'd wager one can find the "correct green".

For shits and giggles, here's a 4-channel amp stereo diagram from an '85 MGM. Also found a digram for an '87 Vic, which was similar except for wire colours.
Do you guys think the factory wiring between the amp and speakers would mind a newer amp and basic speakers? They're pretty thin stuff.

[DerekTheGreat]

It's the problem with the wiring. I think the non-JBL premium setup is a common ground to the amp and then two wires to all the speakers If it has the same setup as the 82 Mark VI... ...Replacing the stock speakers with some budget Kenwoods would probably sort most of the sound issues from the old cones. I suggest Kenwood over Pioneer due to better bass reproduction (gets lower) and still hits the same highs. Infinity makes really good speakers as well, but costs more. Pioneer are still better than the stock stuff though.

Common ground indeed. I would've figured that went away in the 70's for car audio, but I was wrong when I investigated what was there on my old '85.

I bought some Infinity plate 4x6's for my K1500 and dig them. They were also the most sensitive 4x6 I could find at the time. Important when the stock amp is capable of maybe 12 watts. I haven't tried any new speakers in at least five years. If Pioneer is still making stuff with their basalt cones, those might still be OK. Last I remember, most stuff was too shrill for my tastes and really lacking in the midrange presence department. Even those expensive as can be Focal speaks. Synthetic woofer materials tend to have that effect though. Based on my experience with Infinity, I'd probably try them again if I was forced to buy a new speaker.

Just remembered- went through the gamut of replacing speakers in my wife's Tahoe last year. Couldn't find the Blose rear door speakers, but found some Kickers instead. Pretty awful, but they work where the old premiums had foam surrounds which were rotted out. Same deal with the subwoofer. Even though I couldn't find specs on the factory unit's sensitivity, I still went with a refoamed unit as it had a nice, pulpy paper cone, fat magnet (usually means decent bass response) and so I assumed it would have a higher sensitivity rating and thus "play" nicer with the factory amp. I generally hate Bose [Blose] with a passion, but it sounds decent with the Kenwood Excelon I stabbed in there.

The stock speakers were generally not great 40 years ago, and time hasn't improved that situation. There are definitely improvements to be had with just new speakers. If you do upgrade the rest you probably want new speakers anyway so if you're considering an incremental approach I'd start here...

If you're talking about the Ford-JBL speakers, I disagree 100%. However, if you're talking about stock & "premium" offerings, I agree 100%. Although the "premium" speakers I pulled from my '88 LTC were OK. What held them back was the junky stock receiver and the premium amplifier. But, for the junkyard price of $5 - $10 USD, you will not beat the JBL units. Big studios have gone away and people's music tastes have changed, and the speakers with them. If you want musical bass and not booty/ghetto blaster bass, go for those JBL's. JBL nowadays is a commodity company, they're no longer the studio standard they once were, especially since they unceremoniously fired all their old guard like Greg Timbers. Anyway, I did find an improvement over those stock Ford-JBL's, the JBL Power Series, which of course is NLA. And they weren't much better considering how much I spent on them. Biggest differences were a more refined tweeter and a bit deeper bass out of the 6x9's and 5x7's(?) in the doors. I couldn't find the dash speakers in the matching Power Series set, so I settled from some JBL Stadiums or whatever they were. Awful, and so I disconnected them.

Good thing we have DerekTheGreat as our in-house audio expert! The ohms, spls and floating grounds go over my head too, but I certainly do enjoy full and vibrant sound. Especially in a quiet car the (lack of) sound quality is very noticeable...

...Do you guys think the factory wiring between the amp and speakers would mind a newer amp and basic speakers? They're pretty thin stuff.

Thank you! I still consider myself just versed in the technical. I'm a member on the Lansing Heritage forums and those guys really get into some propeller hat stuff that goes way over my head. Those dudes & dudettes design their own cross over networks, horns, speaker enclosures and all that. I'll never ascend to that level of greatness.

Yes, the stock wiring will be fine, so long as it's not all corroded and such. Fortunately, amplifiers aren't sending 100% of their beans down the wire. It's only peaks and sustained booty bass peaks that might get you into trouble. But if you're not trying to pound the ground, you'll be fine.

[kishy]

I had a feeling Derek would pop in with the JBL talk - which is why I specifically pre-empted it and said I'm not doing anything involving factory parts. Though I'm making an example of the 84 Lincoln, I want something that is consistently repeatable on all my vehicles virtually overnight if I felt so inclined, and no factory option can achieve that for me - especially when we consider that I'm including a Chrysler and a Ranger in the mix. It needs to be a product waiting on the shelf for me to buy it, not one I need to hunt down.

The grounds are "commoned" at the radio, if I recall my previous discoveries correctly and if those discoveries apply universally, because I think that was for my non-amplified 83 MGM. That is, each speaker (well, not the dash vs door, those are always in parallel) has + and - right up to the wiring in the dashboard and they bridge together on the radio side of the harness, so you unplug the radio and now the grounds aren't common anymore. However, pulling speaker wire isn't the end of the world so I may entertain it. Certainly makes it more "undoable" if I haven't hacked all the connectors off.

The suggested Kenwood is a no-go. I want a flat black/charcoal faceplate, zero gloss finish, looks-like-it-belongs-in-a-1993-box-truck type of deal. The Blaupunkts and Continentals are the only radios I'm considering currently. But if you know of something with the same appearance that you'd recommend more, I'll gladly consider. I should note that I am inclined to prefer an option that does not have Bluetooth (as I'll never use it and don't want the related buttons on the faceplate) but these don't seem to exist anymore.

too shrill for my tastes and really lacking in the midrange presence department

This really resonates with me as it's a fault that I find with many cars that have aftermarket sound systems. The answer I always seem to get (to "why is it so high") is that "that's what the woofers are for", but like, no. I want all of my sound coming out of all of my speakers, I don't want to be able to detect the highs coming out of anywhere that lows aren't also coming out of. Honestly, the radio in my work-issued base model 2021 Transit Connect sounds absolutely perfect, and I'm pretty sure it's a 2-speaker system, one in each door.

So, is there such a thing as a speaker I can buy in a store today that will give me all of my sound instead of depending on another speaker somewhere else to give me other parts of my sound? Sounds like maybe select Pioneers and select Infinitys?

I think I had an early box LTD in mind when I saw that retrosound unit and thought that it looks about right. Now I checked what they show for an '85 MGM, and it doesn't quite look right either.

https://www.retromanufacturing.com/products/1979-85-mercury-grand-marquis-newport-1-5-din-direct-fit-radio?variant=42656882360476

BTW, the Bremen, Hamburg and Frankfurt have RGB colour, so I'd wager one can find the "correct green".

So, that radio looks like what I think would fit the early Lincolns...but I have not seen a factory radio bezel for a Ford or Mercury that would fit it. I think they've got their application data mixed up unless I've just noticed a lot less in junkyards than I think I have.
edit: so I reviewed the photos of my 83 when I swapped it from the stock radio to a 1DIN aftermarket one. This involved finding a different bezel in a junkyard.
The opening is definitely "more than 1DIN" but I'm pretty sure it's less than 1.5, so the fitment of that Retrosound unit would depend on if the bezel overlaps anything important, and it might not. Refer to https://imgur.com/a/83mgm-radio-stuff-C8cGomB

RGB or otherwise, I would rather not end up in that position. If I've paid more in the hopes that it'll match and then I can't get it to match, I'll be mad every time I look at it for the rest of forever.

[sly]

I'll double down on the Kenwood speakers over Pioneer. When I redid the speakers in the Mark VI, I used the Kenwoods and those had MUCH fuller sound than the Pioneers did. Same highs and mids... but actual lows. The Pioneer speakers didn't have much low end. Now... this was over 10 years ago. So grain of salt on that. New Pioneer stuff may be better. Hit up the speaker demo wall at the local shops to compare. The only problem with the Kenwoods was the Pioneer head unit that tended to clip at volume. That's one thing the Kenwood eXcelon head units don't do. But other Kenwood head units will do. Just the eXcelon line has the beefier amplifiers.

[DerekTheGreat]

I had a feeling Derek would pop in with the JBL talk - which is why I specifically pre-empted it and said I'm not doing anything involving factory parts. Though I'm making an example of the 84 Lincoln, I want something that is consistently repeatable on all my vehicles virtually overnight if I felt so inclined, and no factory option can achieve that for me - especially when we consider that I'm including a Chrysler and a Ranger in the mix. It needs to be a product waiting on the shelf for me to buy it, not one I need to hunt down.

Yes, it's certainly not convenient. But, if you had the patience- those roundy Continentals from the late 90's will have what you need along with Mark VII's. I haven't had the chance to find a Mark VIII to dissect & see what they have tucked away. Barring all of that, I suggest you go into those car audio install places and listen to what they have on display. Nothing like spending money after being swayed by B.S. reviews only to be disappointed. Go with what irritates your ears the least. You can expect improvements if you snag a head unit which offers at least a five band equalizer. The Kenwood I stabbed in my wife's car has all sorts of audio "technology" built into it, but all I use is the loudness feature which boosts bass at lower volumes. It never sounds tubby, just fuller than when it is without it. Being that the Kenwood we have is also utilizing the factory amplifier, the equalizer was a must to combat all of the built-in EQ the factory amp has.

The suggested Kenwood is a no-go. I want a flat black/charcoal faceplate, zero gloss finish, looks-like-it-belongs-in-a-1993-box-truck type of deal. The Blaupunkts and Continentals are the only radios I'm considering currently. But if you know of something with the same appearance that you'd recommend more, I'll gladly consider. I should note that I am inclined to prefer an option that does not have Bluetooth (as I'll never use it and don't want the related buttons on the faceplate) but these don't seem to exist anymore.

I haven't looked at what they've got these days, but I wasn't super happy with the appearance of the one in the Tahoe. Unfortunately, that's what they're giving us. I think it was Arquemann who linked some really nice looking radios a while back. Might be the ones he mentioned.

This really resonates with me as it's a fault that I find with many cars that have aftermarket sound systems. The answer I always seem to get (to "why is it so high") is that "that's what the woofers are for", but like, no. I want all of my sound coming out of all of my speakers, I don't want to be able to detect the highs coming out of anywhere that lows aren't also coming out of. Honestly, the radio in my work-issued base model 2021 Transit Connect sounds absolutely perfect, and I'm pretty sure it's a 2-speaker system, one in each door.

So, is there such a thing as a speaker I can buy in a store today that will give me all of my sound instead of depending on another speaker somewhere else to give me other parts of my sound? Sounds like maybe select Pioneers and select Infinitys?

Yep, what I call the ole "Boom-Boom Tss-Tss."

Well, now we're getting into other important specs- frequency response. It's been a common thing for years for speaker makers to get even lowly 4x6's to respond to ~60hz, but the trouble is they won't live very long while responding to that material. Even if you've got a stout amplifier, a smaller speaker requires more xmax than a larger one. (xmax being the physical limitation in woofer cone travel) This is where crossovers come into play and why subwoofers are essentially mandatory. What I do during set-up- which lasts for hours and over several sessions, is to set a high pass filter for all the speakers at say 120hz without the subwoofer(s) running. Drive the system at high volume and listen for break-up due to bass/amplifier clipping while listening to something well recorded and with a lot of bass. Primus' tune, "Wynona's Big Brown Beaver" works pretty well for this. If it's amplifier clipping, turn it down some. For the newbie, it can be a little tricky to discern between the two. "Black Cadillacs" by Modest Mouse will work too, as IIRC, that one doesn't have as much audio information going on at all times, yet has a nice slow bass drum kick that'll bottom out the woofers- what you need to get the high pass filter setting right. Anyway, you keep adjusting the setpoint of the highpass filter down or up for each speaker type until they can play as loud as the amplifier can properly drive them without bottoming out. This bypassed bass information gets sent to the subwoofer(s), which are engineered to handle bass. For the full-range speakers, I tend to find two-ways satisfactory. Just don't expect them to cover 20hz to 20khz. The system will sound it's best when you feed each speaker what it can properly cover. Keep in mind, your ears probably don't hear much past 15khz. Speakers which advertise response beyond 20khz are for cats & dogs, an indicator I use for a BS speaker.

Then when all of that is ironed out, install "AudioTool" on your phone. What I use that for most is to show me a given system's frequency response. You can try to get that as flat as possible, ~30hz to ~16khz, but that probably won't sound too pleasing on the ears. The frequency range which has us going "ouch!" and reaching for the volume knob to turn it down are typically between 1000 and 2000hz. Our ears naturally boost frequencies around that region, so I tend to attenuate that nonsense down quite a bit. I imagine you'll end up doing the same.

So, that radio looks like what I think would fit the early Lincolns...but I have not seen a factory radio bezel for a Ford or Mercury that would fit it. I think they've got their application data mixed up unless I've just noticed a lot less in junkyards than I think I have.
edit: so I reviewed the photos of my 83 when I swapped it from the stock radio to a 1DIN aftermarket one. This involved finding a different bezel in a junkyard.
The opening is definitely "more than 1DIN" but I'm pretty sure it's less than 1.5, so the fitment of that Retrosound unit would depend on if the bezel overlaps anything important, and it might not. Refer to https://imgur.com/a/83mgm-radio-stuff-C8cGomB

RGB or otherwise, I would rather not end up in that position. If I've paid more in the hopes that it'll match and then I can't get it to match, I'll be mad every time I look at it for the rest of forever.

I haven't heard any of the RetroSound units, but I think they're overpriced for what they are.

I'll double down on the Kenwood speakers over Pioneer. When I redid the speakers in the Mark VI, I used the Kenwoods and those had MUCH fuller sound than the Pioneers did. Same highs and mids... but actual lows. The Pioneer speakers didn't have much low end. Now... this was over 10 years ago. So grain of salt on that. New Pioneer stuff may be better. Hit up the speaker demo wall at the local shops to compare. The only problem with the Kenwoods was the Pioneer head unit that tended to clip at volume. That's one thing the Kenwood eXcelon head units don't do. But other Kenwood head units will do. Just the eXcelon line has the beefier amplifiers.

X2 on the eXcelon line having beefier amplifiers. They also tend to have separate subwoofer controls, equalizer and high/low pass settings that scratch the itches I have in those areas. Twenty years ago I was an Alpine guy, now I prefer the eXcelon stuff. Ultimately though, I prefer whatever sounds the best. Quality is subject to change rapidly these days, or so it seems.

[kishy]

edit: replied at same time as you Derek, reviewing your post, but wrote the below first.

So, what should I be looking for in a speaker to attach to the following options:

• The factory premium non-JBL system
• Blaupunkt Milano with the factory amplifier present
• Blaupunkt Milano with no external amplifier
• Pioneer DEH-1900MP with no external amplifier

Is there a wattage+impedence+decibel range that covers all of these applications?

Just picking some favourably priced examples, what do we think of

• these as door speakers: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113136...6S.html?tp=105
• these as package shelf speakers: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113C68...6S.html?tp=105
• not even sure what to look at as dash speakers due to the weird size, what about these: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_236TER...r35.html?tp=10

[sly]

I can vouch for the 6x8 Kenwoods as that's as close as you can get to the 6x9 I bought (6966s). They won't blow you away with their volume, but clarity is decently good. Since the speakers are rated for 30 watts RMS and the head unit is rated at 20 watts RMS, it should be a good match. You can bypass the amp altogether with that much power and it will probably be cleaner without the amp sound wise.

Dash speakers you would need the BMW 5 inch speaker adapter (only one I have located that might fit since they don't make the nice metal rings any more - or just 3D print your own) and 4 inch speakers to load into them. Due to the triangle attachment point on the 5 inch speaker, the adapters are suspect to not fit. That would be the best spot for some tweeters if you so desired since any driver will not have enough ass to make any bass from that location without hogging out the dash to make room for foam shroud/bucket thing boom mat something or other.

BMW adapter model: https://www.printables.com/model/633...peaker-3-screw
Might be a good idea to print the model on paper if you can print a mm exact sized version and compare to the stock speaker mount to make sure the holes line up. Then print your own and drill holes for the speaker you're mounting in them. The other option is to hog out the dash enough to accept 5.25 inch speakers and just drill into the dash with the new screws using the stock hole in the metal brace as one corner and the plastic dash for the rest. Not keen on the hackery myself, but I've seen it done with decent results.

[sly]

For a little more info... the eXcelon amps in mine are rated at 22 watts rms and they get plenty loud for me. Since I have no idea about the amp in the Blaupunkt, I don't know if it'll clip like that Pioneer I put in the Mark VI does. Looks like the Pioneer you have in the list is the same basic ratings as my eXcelon, so it might drive the Kenwoods a little better than the Blaupunkt. Obviously, testing that for yourself would be the real decider.