Stock Brake Preferences

[Bloovic2]

Morning people. I'm slowly working my way through the to-do list on my 90 Crown Vic, and next up are the brakes, front and rear. The front rotors are shot, and will need to be replaced, and I don't know if the rear drums will need to be replaced or just turned yet.

Questions -

1. Are all (new) rotors made equal? If not, what are your preferences for new rotors, bearing in mind I'm staying with 15" wheels?

2. Is it advisable to change out the calipers at this point? - they haven't been replaced for at least 3 or 4 years.

3. Any recommendations on pads for front and rear?

4. Are used rotors from a junkyard generally okay to use? How can I tell if they are warped or otherwise no good?

5. I read the sticky re. brake upgrades, and wondered how much better the braking is when going to high-friction pads/police calipers etc. I don't drive the car hard at all.

6. Are there any bits and pieces that are commonly overlooked when replacing pads and/or calipers?

Thanks for your replies!

[Piece-it pete]

I get happy when brakes are done, knowing I won't have to do them again for a while

1st thing be sure you can break the bleeder valves loose before you get started. Use a 6 point socket for it.

If you can't I'd just replace the calipers. Other than that, I've always had Ford calipers give me warning they were going (pulling slightly from sticking etc) so I just wait till they go before changing them. Ymmv.

Using Rock Auto for pricing (less the 5% discount and plus frt). I assume you DON'T have the police package btw:

Pretty common overlook is caliber bushings, after 20 years they just might possibly be a little soft: WAGNER Part # SG199 $4.20, or similar.

I lile to change these, I had one fail on a box and for the $4.20 or so each I think it's a very good idea. These are the rubber hoses that go from the frame to the calibers, right and left. Be sure you'll be able to disconnect them at the frame, perhaps soak'em in penetrating oil ahead of time::
RAYBESTOS Part # BH36935
RAYBESTOS Part # BH36936

Yes there are big differences in rotors and someone will chip in with the site that shows the new supercheap chinese crap that shatter. I'm had plenty of trouble with the regular cheap chinese crap that doesn't shatter, just warps every 10k miles
But rotors can be a bit expensive. Just the same, if you have the money I'd go for name brand 'professional' grade rotors:
RAYBESTOS Part # 6066R $47 ea (and get a free Raybestos shirt, wow)

Pads, if I'm planning on keeping a car I get lifetime pads locally.

I don't see bearings for this car on Rock. Are they hubless rotors?

Pete

[1990LTD]

I bought my bearings at RockAuto.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1434350&parttype=1672

[gadget73]

Morning people. I'm slowly working my way through the to-do list on my 90 Crown Vic, and next up are the brakes, front and rear. The front rotors are shot, and will need to be replaced, and I don't know if the rear drums will need to be replaced or just turned yet.

Questions -

1. Are all (new) rotors made equal? If not, what are your preferences for new rotors, bearing in mind I'm staying with 15" wheels?

2. Is it advisable to change out the calipers at this point? - they haven't been replaced for at least 3 or 4 years.

3. Any recommendations on pads for front and rear?

4. Are used rotors from a junkyard generally okay to use? How can I tell if they are warped or otherwise no good?

5. I read the sticky re. brake upgrades, and wondered how much better the braking is when going to high-friction pads/police calipers etc. I don't drive the car hard at all.

6. Are there any bits and pieces that are commonly overlooked when replacing pads and/or calipers?

Thanks for your replies!

1) don't know. You'll get mixed replies on this but I've got Chinese rotors on my Towncar, no idea on the S10, and noname old US production rotors on the Mark VII without problems. I've also never managed to warp a set of rotors on anything, so my driving may be atypical.

2) If they're less than a decade old and not dragging, the calipers should be fine. If they were original, I'd say change them. As long as the piston pushes in smooth and the pads don't show signs of being constantly applied I'd call it good. Check the hoses though, if they're cracked, replace them.

3) Don't get the cheap Advance ceramic pads. I have a set on my S10 and they *suck*. I think I have Bendix or Raybestos on the rear of the Mark, and Napa Premium pads up front and they work fine. Performance Friction on the Towncar and they also work fine.

4) don't bother. Rockauto has Kelsey-Hayes front rotors on clearance for 31 bucks each. If you really want to go used, take a micrometer with you and get the thickest rotors you can find. Make sure they are well above discard, and probably expect to have to get them turned. Price that out and factor in your time to determine if its worth it. I personally don't feel it is.


6)Pins must be clean and lightly greased with disc brake lube. Brake hoses need to be free of cracks. Brake fluid could stand to be flushed, especially if its black. The wheel bearings also should be repacked or replaced if you're doing the rotors. You'll need a grease seal too.

[91waggin]

Morning people. I'm slowly working my way through the to-do list on my 90 Crown Vic, and next up are the brakes, front and rear. The front rotors are shot, and will need to be replaced, and I don't know if the rear drums will need to be replaced or just turned yet.

Questions -

1. Are all (new) rotors made equal? If not, what are your preferences for new rotors, bearing in mind I'm staying with 15" wheels?

2. Is it advisable to change out the calipers at this point? - they haven't been replaced for at least 3 or 4 years.

3. Any recommendations on pads for front and rear?

4. Are used rotors from a junkyard generally okay to use? How can I tell if they are warped or otherwise no good?

5. I read the sticky re. brake upgrades, and wondered how much better the braking is when going to high-friction pads/police calipers etc. I don't drive the car hard at all.

6. Are there any bits and pieces that are commonly overlooked when replacing pads and/or calipers?

Thanks for your replies!

Edit: Whew! that ended up being a lot longer than I expected. Enjoy the novel!

First, a note: I don't fuck around with brakes. You are operating a metal machine that weighs 3800+ pounds, and is capable of traveling at speeds well in excess of 100 feet per second (roughly 68 MPH). These are the parts you are trusting to bring said 3800+ pounds of metal to a stop in a god damn hurry if necessary. As such, I don't skimp on brakes. Ever.

My model here is aircraft maintenance, where failure is simply unacceptable.

1) All new rotors are not made equal. More than a few available suck ass. Avoid Aimco like the plague. Garbage. Rockauto has Motorcraft available. If the Motorcrafts are like the ones that came on my car originally, they will last 100k+ miles of easy driving. Other than Motorcraft, I would go with Raybestos professional grade. Anything other than these three, I have no experience with.

2) It might not be necessary, but it can't hurt. Remember, these are the things that stop your car. See the note above. Do you want to take chances? Again, buy quality such as Raybestos or Motorcraft.

3) As far as pads go, I have had excellent luck with Raybestos Professional Grade. I've installed them on several different cars of varying types and have never been disappointed by either stopping power or longevity. They are listed under the "Daily Driver" section on rockauto. I don't have experience with anything else listed there, but the Raybestos severe duty are probably very good. As a rule: Stay away from anything that doesn't say "semi-metallic." In other words, stay away from organic and ceramic. Semi-metallic is tried and true and works extremely well.

4) I wouldn't. See my note at the beginning of the section. At the junkyard, you have no idea whether the part you are obtaining is quality or cheap crap. While the price may be right, the only way to make sure that they aren't warped is to have them turned, and that costs $20 or more per rotor.

5) The sticky on brake upgrades mostly has to do with upgrading the rotor and caliper to the larger later-style parts. For stock applications, there are two styles listed, police/taxi/station wagon, and standard. The difference between the two is that police/taxi/wagon calipers have steel pistons and brake pads that fit those steel pistons, while the standard application have phenolic pistons, and pads that fit those pistons. The calipers themselves are identical, and you can change from one style to the other without a problem. The pistons are different, though, and since the pads have clips that go inside the piston, the pads are different as well.

I changed from steel to phenolic awhile ago, because I had to do a brake job late at night (long story), and the local store only had phenolic calipers in stock. In theory, the steel piston is supposed to help dissipate heat better and prevent brake fade. Frankly, I can't tell the difference, and I'm pretty hard on brakes.

Long story short: Check whether you have steel or phenolic pistons in your calipers, and order pads to match. If you decide to replace calipers, make sure you order pads to match whatever style of calipers you end up ordering.

6) Make sure all the shims/hardware etc are in place when doing the job. If in doubt, a chilton's manual should have a diagram. Lightly grease the caliper slides before installing. If you have squeal issues after you install the pads (if you use Raybestos Professional grade I doubt you will), the red disc brake quiet (made by CRC) works wonders if you follow the instructions to the letter, including cure time before reinstallation.

Like gadget says, don't forget to repack the front wheel bearings and inspect brake hoses for cracks, abrasion, etc. If the color of brake fluid isn't identical to new brake fluid out of the bottle, it needs to be flushed by bleeding the brakes thoroughly with an assistant pumping the pedal. When brake fluid changes color, it means that it has absorbed moisture and is losing its hydraulic properties. Make sure to do a thorough bleed when replacing calipers. I have had the bleeder valves on these calipers introduce air into the line through the threads, and still have had air in the system after closing the valve for the last time. To avoid this, crack the bleeder valve open just enough to allow fluid flow. Open the valve as little as possible, as in 1/16 of a turn.

Here's the proper procedure for adjusting wheel bearings, from Ford:


Another note: When doing rear brakes, be aware that tow package/police/taxi/wagons (possibly others) got 11" drums and shoes to match. Standard cars got 10" drums and shoes to match. Apparently the wheel cylinders have a slightly larger bore, too. Measure, and make sure you get the right stuff for your car.

One final caveat: In no way do I claim to be an expert about this stuff. I'm just a guy who's done a lot of brakes. YMMV.

[91waggin]

I've also never managed to warp a set of rotors on anything, so my driving may be atypical.

This boggles my mind.:drug:

[sly]

I've never managed to warp the rotors either... but then I've replaced them a few times because I bought the car with warped rotors. I've warped drums though.

[gadget73]

I learned to drive in cars that had marginal manual brakes, so basically I learned to drive in such a way that didn't require me to actually push on that pedal unless absolutely neccesary. I still drive that way even though my brakes work well. I got like 60k out of the front brake pads on my S10, and they were only bad at that point because it sat for a year and the rotors rusted to hell, destroying the pads. The rotors were obviously replaced at that time too, roundabout the 140k mark. The original rear brakes were replaced at like 140k and they weren't quite dead yet.

[Bloovic2]

Thanks for the comprehensive replies, gents - gives me a great start.

[Piece-it pete]

I can't believe there's people out there that never warped a rotor! Is my driving that bad?

91, thanks. I was taught to tighten the nut, then back it off a teenie bit and leave it there, that there should be the slightest amount of play. I wonder if that used to be true, or I was led down a dark alley?

I missed the back brakes. There's a rubber line that goes from the frame to the rear axle too. I change the rear hardware when I do the shoes, they doesn't always need it but it's cheap and better to have them then not imo. Again great idea to see if you can break the rear bleeders open before starting.

All I see on Rock is rear bearings. Strange.

Ah and since I've used spray antisqueek I don't have any squeeks

Brake safety being paramount, I've found the best way to do them is drink a half case and impress your friends by doing the fronts blindfolded

Pete

[91waggin]

91, thanks. I was taught to tighten the nut, then back it off a teenie bit and leave it there, that there should be the slightest amount of play. I wonder if that used to be true, or I was led down a dark alley?

All I see on Rock is rear bearings. Strange.


Brake safety being paramount, I've found the best way to do them is drink a half case and impress your friends by doing the fronts blindfolded

Pete

I have no idea if how you were taught is correct, but just the tiniest amount of play is about what I'd expect, regardless of how you get there.

Are you looking for front bearings on Rockauto?

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1838806

Front outer

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1840502

Front inner

They were the first two listed.


And I lol'd hard at doing brakes blindfolded.

[RobertB]

I can't believe there's people out there that never warped a rotor!

I've warped my rotors, and I'm not an aggressive driver.

[yucatecd]

Dear Panthers,

91 Wagon Wrote:

"First, a note: I don't fuck around with brakes. You are operating a metal machine that weighs 3800+ pounds, and is capable of traveling at speeds well in excess of 100 feet per second (roughly 68 MPH). These are the parts you are trusting to bring said 3800+ pounds of metal to a stop in a god damn hurry if necessary. As such, I don't skimp on brakes. Ever.

My model here is aircraft maintenance, where failure is simply unacceptable."

Ditto. For every one post on brakes in this forum I read - what - six? posts on how to improve performance. STOP is far, far more important than GO. Ask that kid you didn't hit.

I have been running my 89 CP (5000 pounds loaded for travel) for eleven years, during which I improved tires, 16 inch wheels and discs front and back. A couple years ago in downtown Talahasee rushhour traffic, the BMW two vehicles ahead dynamited his brakes, the KIA in front of me hit hers and I hit mine. Almost stopped. Low speed 5 mph impact: $1500 damage to my car, maybe twice that to the KIA which was lighter and newer than my car and HAD BETTER BRAKES.

So Scott installed the big brake package. I hope I can now stop as good as a KIA if not that BMW.

I don't care how carefully you drive or how experienced you are: sooner or later you're going to need good brakes. The best are not good enough.

At 100 kmh the Bugatti will stop in 34 m. Roughly translated, at 60 mph it'll stop in 100 feet.

Now That's true performance.

Donald McCaig

[Piece-it pete]

I have no idea if how you were taught is correct, but just the tiniest amount of play is about what I'd expect, regardless of how you get there.

Are you looking for front bearings on Rockauto?

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1838806

Front outer

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1840502

Front inner

They were the first two listed.


And I lol'd hard at doing brakes blindfolded.

I've changed mine already. I couldn't find them through the Rock catalog for the 90, I was surprised, all 4 said rears.

Brakes are a serious matter, but they're also simple. I've tried for years to get my friends to bet $20 I could do the fronts blindfolded if everything was laid out, they won't take it

Of course it'd be checked before rolling. But it would be right

I've warped my rotors, and I'm not an aggressive driver.

Glad to hear it! I feel better now lol. Since I got good quality rotors instead of those $12 specials I haven't had a problem.

...

At 100 kmh the Bugatti will stop in 34 m. Roughly translated, at 60 mph it'll stop in 100 feet.

Now That's true performance.

Donald McCaig

That's amazing!

Pete

[1990LTD]

I'd give you 20 bucks to do my front brakes blindfolded, I've never done them before and when it comes to matters of safety (brakes etc) I am very apprehensive.