Fishtailing on snow

[p71towny]

I dunno, I think its all in the tires. In general panthers do suck in the winter. I've got 300# of crete in angela's trunk. She also needs new tires. Also, shift kits with hard downshifts FTMFL in the winter.

[gadget73]

I wonder if its not a combination of tall axle ratio and a lack of a limited slip. The only one I've ever driven in snow is my Towncar, which came from the factory with a 3.55 and a traction lock. It seems a lot of folks with traction locks have decent results, so maybe thats the key. I know some people swear by open rears for more predictable winter handling, but the only vehicles I've ever owned that could move around decent in the slop have been the Towncar with its traction lock, and my Beetle with its rear engine. Both trucks with their open rears have been horrible, and the Mark VII with it's open rear is also pretty terrible.

[P72Ford]

One of the best vehicles I've driven in the snow is my Dad's '81 Caprice Estate Wagon...

Tired 350 Oldsmobile, and a 2.XX something positraction 10 bolt, with a tired posi unit. The car has 300K+ miles on it; the rear has been serviced, but never rebuilt, etc.

I think its the extra weight over the back, combined with decent tires. The car has good traction... I had a local cop in a 4x4 Expedition follow me into a snow drift one time, attempting to pinch me for driving into it in the first place. I went in with a forward velocity of ~ 35 mph, and the pedal on the floor. The snow was over the wheels, and I wasn't lifting. I came out the other side, but he didn't...

I have no issues with a car sliding all over the road (I'm not afraid to "drive" it); its just traction from a stop. My red car will get stuck in a only a few inches of snow. Meaning, when my driveway hasn't been plowed (its 300+' long), and there are 4+" on it, I can't get the car out. It just will not move forward. And believe me, I've tried many approaches to the start off. I've added weight, brand new trak lok, 3.73s, etc. But I never really had good winter tread tires on the back (just Michelin LT M/S). That would have to explain it for me. But I have a 4 wheel drive now... Also, in 2WD, with the open 3.55 rear, and aggressive 33" tires, my truck sucks in the snow. I'll drive it anywhere in 4WD though... and a locker is coming soon.

[pantera77]

92 crown vic - open 3.08s, generic all seasons, ABS + Traction Assist, ~150lbs in trunk, rotted out to fuck and back: Decent in the snow. Traction Assist annoying as hell, but I could get through most snow no problem. Never got stuck or had fishtailing issues. Also the first year I had my license and drove through snow

91 grand marq - open 3.08s, brand new snow tires on the back, worn to fuck ones on the front, no ABS or any BS, ~150lbs in the trunk: No problems at all last year, and we got a shit ton of snow.

This year it has 3.55's and a track-lok, no weight in the trunk, same tires as last year in the back, and brand new ones up front, so far no problems at all. I was purposely bombing threw downtown buffalo on unplowed roads seeing how it would act losing traction. I have to try pretty hard to get the back to break loose, and when it does, it's very predictable.

[hemihotrod402]

when I drove it last year (and this was with my temps), I had stock shocks and springs, with worn out all weather tires, open 2.73 gears, and I had no problems whatsoever. Im not going to say that you do not know how to drive it, but im going to say to take it out to a parking lot when you have snow on the ground, and cut donuts for a while. My dads truck is RWD, and I can say from first hand experience, that it drives a lot differently then My CV. You have to get used to different vehicles in diferent conditions. I can do things in the CV that I cant do in the truck, and I can do things in the truck I cant do in the CV. If you drive the car around a little bit, you might find it easier to control. If you still cant figure it out, throw a couple hundred pounds of sand bags in the trunk. If that still doesnt help, its beyond help.

[King_V]

I'm kind of curious ... you mentioned some other older stuff, but do you have winter seat time in a box Caprice? It'd be entertaining if their car worked but Ford's ripoff got it wrong somehow.

I'd say he has.... or the Oldsmobile version thereof:

1989 Grand Marquis

This is the first year this car has been driven in winter, and it sucks. I've driven a 1977 Delta 88 and a 1970 Buick Lesabre, both with summer tires, in the snow and never had so much trouble as i do with the GM.

On the Delta 88 and the Lesabre I only had summer tires. So even with crappy winter tires (which they aren't), the GM should still handle better, all things being equal.

even in the summer with the summer tires, the GM would fishtail in the rain.

Hrm, I don't know . . I've generally used "all season" tires - don't know if that constitutes "summer tires" or not.

I don't know enough about the winter tires you have (or any winter tires in general, come to think of it) to say for sure - but I do remember reading Consumer Reports tire ratings a few years back, and sometimes some tires designated as "winter" just were badly suited to it, I don't know whether via design, tread pattern, or whatever.


Checked into it - it seems that the 1977 Delta 88 and the 1979 LTD have the same front/rear weight bias - 56%/44%

The Delta weighs only about 100 lbs more. 1979 is the last year I have this data, though. Autos.msn.com shows the 1989 Grand Marquis as weighing about 100 lbs more than the 1977 LTD, though I don't know how, if at all, weight distribution is different. I can't imagine it's by much.

So I don't think it could be a weight issue - just SOMEthing.


I suppose the easiest thing to do, if you have such available, is to swap on another set of tires/rims, and see if it makes an immediately noticeable difference for the better or worse. If NOT, then I'd suspect something funky going on in the suspension.



For the record, every rear-drive car I've ever owned has been a peg-legger, except for the 1988 T-bird Sport, and the latter wasn't exactly confidence-inspiring in rain or snow. YMMV

[1987cp]

I'd say he has.... or the Oldsmobile version thereof:

'77 ... right ..... I tend to forget what year the square B-body came out and picture an old Buick Deuce-and-a-Quarter whenever something largish and '70s is mentioned.

Hrm, I don't know . . I've generally used "all season" tires - don't know if that constitutes "summer tires" or not.

sometimes some tires designated as "winter" just were badly suited to it, I don't know whether via design, tread pattern, or whatever.

Depends. Many all-season tires work OK in the snow. High-performance all-seasons, such as the Kumho ASX that came with my Vic, can be flat worthless in the snow. (in my opinion) My ASXs are closer to a semislick than anything else I've owned, so I consider them more of a summer-only tire even though they're clearly marked All Season on the sideway.

Checked into it - it seems that the 1977 Delta 88 and the 1979 LTD have the same front/rear weight bias - 56%/44%

The Delta weighs only about 100 lbs more. 1979 is the last year I have this data, though. Autos.msn.com shows the 1989 Grand Marquis as weighing about 100 lbs more than the 1977 LTD, though I don't know how, if at all, weight distribution is different. I can't imagine it's by much.

So I don't think it could be a weight issue - just SOMEthing.

Remember from our "what does your car weigh" thread that Panther LTDs themselves varied quite a bit in weight. My '81 supposedly weighed about 3460 pounds when new, while my '87 sedan was supposedly about 3750 and weighed-in at 3700# vehicle weight a few years ago. My '87 wagon is right about 4000 pounds (and supposedly was when new), while MikeLTD says his '89 wagon is more like 4300-4500. So go figure.

I suppose the easiest thing to do, if you have such available, is to swap on another set of tires/rims, and see if it makes an immediately noticeable difference for the better or worse. If NOT, then I'd suspect something funky going on in the suspension.

I don't doubt that a more compliant suspension probably contributes to better winter manners. If I had the time, inclination, and moolah, I should consider obtain multiple complete sets of springs and swaybars and test all combinations of the above on the same car in nasty conditions without changing anything else (except maybe making sure the alignment is still OK).

For the record, every rear-drive car I've ever owned has been a peg-legger, except for the 1988 T-bird Sport, and the latter wasn't exactly confidence-inspiring in rain or snow. YMMV

All my Panthers have been peg-legs too. Actually, I don't know if I've ever driven a Trak-Lok Panther. I tried to spin out in a '86 5.0 Mustang in the rain once, but that's not a Panther and I didn't seriously consider buying it, at least not for the outrageous price the goons were demanding.

[p71towny]

The traction control on the aero panthers is shitty, I pull the fuse in the towny for winter, but she shouldn't see any more winters anyhow. And yeah the vic did well with shitty tires and 3:08 posi. The grand marquis is 2:73 open, and the towny is 3:08 open. My 73 delta 88 PLOWED through the snow. That car just didn't give a fuck.

[1987cp]

My car just goes in a straight line if I slam on the brakes whilst all four wheels are on ice. Do you think I might need a brake job?

[Nathan in MI]

Yes. Your car is supposed to careen wildly out of control and wrap itself around the nearest oak tree when all four brakes are locked.

[P72Ford]

That could be really exciting if the nearest oak tree was a mile or so away...

[SVT98t]

I just put 2 Firestone Winterforce 215/70/R15 's on the Tank. They rock. And the Trac Loc goes in this weekend, so FU snow!!! bring it on!!!!!

[91waggin]

Trac-loc. All I have to say about that is that there's no replacement. I also have a pair of studded tires that I throw on the rear if it gets really bad. Last year we had a shit-ton of snow in downtown Portland (which never happens--everybody panics and it seems like Portland owns exactly one snow plow). I got myself in fresh snow up to the centercaps on my wheels and I was able to power out with a little bit of rocking. I had no weight in the back, just the trac-lok and studded tires.

[DriverSideImpact98]

Strange, I've never really had any trouble with any of mine, other than my '01 being horrendous at the beginning of the season last year when I still had half used up summer tires on it. I put on a set of snows and it's been terrific ever since. My '85 Lincoln and '89 Crown Vic PI both always just had all season tires on them, and I never had much problem with either one in the winter.

My 98 with snow tires is great. Almost unstoppable. My 83 Caprice was pretty good in the snow too and that only had snow tires on the rear. Maybe your car just has funny weight distribution... I'd try sand/salt bags just to see what it does.

[zoomie]

i have a 3.08 open diff running 215/65/15 with no wieght in the trunk
crappy front tires and tigerpaw allseasons in the back car pretty,uch goes where i put it. only issue ive had is some wheelspin when taking off up hill when it gets really crap out but other than that my linc does fairly well.
may also have somethign to do with suspension too i just put police shocks in the rear not to long ago and boy does it make a difference on how the car handles!. FYi had to have some fun and did a doughnut in aldies parking lot
now i need to film some winter fun lol