Cam swappage

[1987cp]

I have read about breaking in cams before, and I'll be reading a good bit more before actually trying it ....

I will warn you right now that the 2-row radiator in the car is not capable of doing the job during break-in.

Uh................................................ .......................!

Would it help any to install the rigid with the 2" fan spacer I have left over from my '79 wagon instead of the fan clutch? I'm also not anticipating ambient temps in excess of 40 degrees anytime in the next week or two ......

[Pirate]

Nope, hydraulic flat tappet. Thus the concern about it being used. The conversion rollers I've found all go 35-4xx-8. I definitely see your point about heads, though - and the name of the game at this point is to swap a cam only if it'll work OK with the E7 corkolas still in place!

The $400ish price of crossbar lifters to use with a factory-style roller cam was a big chunk of what talked me out of either doing a 351 for the wagon or buying a fresh professionally-assembled nonroller 302 a guy I know was willing to part with for cheap. After getting Pirate's 20-minute tutorial about the Comp conversion camshafts, I feel very silly indeed!




Can't afford it right now. In fact, I doubt I'd be contemplating a cam swap at all at the present time if I didn't already have a reasonably suitable specimen at my disposal, just replace the bad lifters and keep driving unless lobe damage is detected. Still halfway tempted to do that anyway, just because I don't feel like removing and reinstalling water pumps and front covers.

I do still have my eye on the 35-421-8 for when I can swing it ($240 for cam plus $10-$40 for lifter retainers plus up to $150ish for custom pushrods). If I could afford that at this time, I might be buying the Windsor Jrs. the guy with the cam has for sale. Free, on the other hand, I can afford.

Speaking of rollers, DD 2000 always projected an enormous power gain just from switching its lifter type setting from flat to roller. DD 2003 shows no difference at all. I presume the latter is typically more realistic, as the gains to be had with a roller cam come from the fact that it can handle considerably more radical ramp rates?

If you have wiped out four lifters, that cam is trash, end of story.

Want a suggestion? Either find a set of Crane retrofit roller lifters on Ebay, and use a stock 5.0 HO cam, or use a set of stock 5.0 roller lifters, and find a used Comp Cams Roller Retrofit cam (I think this is the cheaper route). New pushrods will be required for both the Crane and Comp Cams combinations (I can definitely verify with the Comp pushrods, but I will have to verify whether or not the Crane lifters require new pushrods, I'm too lazy to look right now).

[torquelover]

Would it help any to install the rigid with the 2" fan spacer I have left over from my '79 wagon instead of the fan clutch? I'm also not anticipating ambient temps in excess of 40 degrees anytime in the next week or two ......

With the colder temps you might be fine. Just to be safe, might want to have the wife or someone standing by with the garden hose ready to soak the radiator with. Don't use a nozzle, just run the high volume, low pressure water down the radiator on the inlet side.

Or, to avoid all this anyway, just do what the guy with the parrot said to do. No worries about breaking in the cam, a lot less friction, and more area under the curve (for the same given lift and duration, a roller cam will have the valve open longer).

You can try to sell the cam and lifter set this spring when people get the itch to work on their Windsors.

Oh yeah, don't forget to use the new timing set I gave you, too. Still have that around?

If you have wiped out four lifters, that cam is trash, end of story.

Want a suggestion? Either find a set of Crane retrofit roller lifters on Ebay, and use a stock 5.0 HO cam, or use a set of stock 5.0 roller lifters, and find a used Comp Cams Roller Retrofit cam (I think this is the cheaper route).

+1

[1987cp]

Pickings on used retrofit cams or lifters seem to be somewhere between slim and none, but I'm looking .......

What's funny is, I'm seeing lots of used solid-roller lifters for sale very cheaply ........

[torquelover]

What's funny is, I'm seeing lots of used solid-roller lifters for sale very cheaply ........

Maybe it's a sign. Solid roller cam, new camshaft, and heads are in order!

[1987cp]

:lol:

Hm... some guy on the Corral found it necessary to admonish me that I must use stock-style lifter retainers if I want to use stock-style lifters ....... as if anyone is actually stupid enough to run roller lifters without some sort of retainer ....

Another guy seems to be implying that one CAN use both the 5.0 cam and lifters in a nonroller block .... which based on any info I can find, is always-always-always a HUGE no-no. Awaiting clarification on that, because his DarkKnight-style sentence structure could be misleading me (big thanks to all you guys who know actually how to communicate in your native language).


I guess I'm still not getting why the car should overheat during a cam break-in session if the fan is spinning and there's plenty of cool airflow available (such as if I push it out into the driveway). Does it really generate that outrageous an amount of heat?

[torquelover]

I guess I'm still not getting why the car should overheat during a cam break-in session if the fan is spinning and there's plenty of cool airflow available (such as if I push it out into the driveway). Does it really generate that outrageous an amount of heat?

The engine seems to be able to put out more thermal energy than the mechanical fan and 2-row radiator can handle. Sitting still and keeping the revs up and moving generates a lot of heat. After the first cam on the stock long block it got a touch warm for my tastes while breaking in the cam. After the engine build and another cam, running a garden hose into the radiator was the only way to keep the temps down. Thankfully I had plenty of help there, and did no have to shut the motor off in the middle of the break-in, which could have been disastrous.

Both times were in the middle of summer, so you might be just fine. Also, both those times were with the old restrictive factory exhaust including tiny manifolds and not-healthy original cats.

Of course, you now have an AC condenser in the way which was not there the last two times, so we'll see how it goes.

I hope you go roller cam and AFR 185

Sell the 2-door or the womangs Cavalier if you have to. Having 4 cars in the driveway, with only one sorta 100% functional has got to suck. I did the "move the cars around" shuffle with 3 cars every morning and night and it sucked, even though they all started and ran just fine.

[Rob Roy]

As for the Rotella T, from what I've heard that used to be the magic stuff for flat cams, but apparently its been re-formulated to remove the zinc content. I don't know this as gospel though.

The zinc in the latest formulations of Rotella has been reduced to meet the CJ4 spec, but it certainly hasn't been removed. The last virgin oil analysis I saw for their 5w40 CJ4 showed a zinc content of about 1200 ppm, which is down from the 1400 ppm in their CI4+ oil. However, it is still well above the zinc content you will find in the average SM rated gasoline engine oil. For your flat tappet camshaft a CI4+ oil is a good choice, these oils will have higher levels of ZDDP and a high TBN. As for the JD engine oil, at one time it was blended by Mobil; I'm not sure if it still is. In any case, it is a good oil but rather pricey for what it is.

1987cp, what engine oil were you using prior to the Mobil? When you say the lifters are trashed, do you mean that they are excessively worn or are they collapsed?

-Robert

[1987cp]

I've only done one oil change on this car, and that was with the Mobil-1 Diesel Truck Oil, but I'm told it's been run on Mobil-1 of one sort or another its whole life since it was rebuilt (a jug of Mobil-1 High Mileage was provided with the car, which according to the chart linked above has only 100 ppm less phosphorus additive than the truck oil!). I recently switched my other motors (5.0 rollers and 2.2 Ecotec with roller followers) to regular Mobil-1 from the plain dino juice I'd used before.

Three of the lifters are definitely collapsed, and one is about half collapsed. Ivan mentioned there's an off chance I can free up the plungers by gentle persuasion with a propane torch, so I may try that just because. I'll find out more about their condition in the event I'm allowed to finish my heater plenum for the wagon so I can get the Vic into the garage and check it out. The weather warming up above 20 degrees would help too. Time is at an crazy-superhuge-enormous premium when I'm expected to spend about 350% of it hanging out with family, and money for retrofit roller parts is even scarcer.

[gadget73]

:lol:

Hm... some guy on the Corral found it necessary to admonish me that I must use stock-style lifter retainers if I want to use stock-style lifters ....... as if anyone is actually stupid enough to run roller lifters without some sort of retainer ....

Don't assume anything. You'd be surprised at the colossal fuckups people do when building engines.


Some of the heat during breakin is extra friction from parts seating but I suspect a lot of it is just the motor cranking along at 2500 or so with the hood up and no forced air across the radiator. It might do better with the hood closed honestly.