Engine build options

[turbo2256b]

Best economy carb ... 200 6 cyl 200 HP 35 city / 45 hi way ... 302 375 HP 28 hi way.

FI 302 32.8 hp ?

[OVERKILL]

It definitely would be cheaper, but your tunability and flexibility would be less. You could have a conservative map for grocery getter mode and a hotter map for rock and roll mode. With factory SEFI, you have to add electronics to because of the factory rev limiter if you are going to turn over 6000 depending on which factory computer you are using. With the Holley TBI injection you can use a conventional nitrous plate under the TBI unit which is much cheaper.
I am willing to bet that they include a CD with the kits now as that picture has been around since the kit first came out. If not, it would be easy to burn the floppies onto a CD with a different CP if your laptop didn't come with a floppy drive.

I was responding to the original poster's goals of most horsepower yet retaining a minimum of the old fuel efficiency. For a bargain build with decent power but not maximum possible horsepower, it is hard to beat a Ford EFI conversion because of the availability of donor cars.

I'm willing to bet you are wrong (in regards to the floppies thing)

I have the Holley Commander sitting in my basement in a box right now, purchased a few months ago to convert my old landlord's boat to EFI. It comes with floppies.

Ford's SEFI is great, and it's a lot better than anything TBI that you are going to put on the vehicle. TBI is antiquated technology, and the reason GM finally stopped using it and switched to multi-port.

If you want a simple and easy setup that should pretty much work flawlessly out of the box, do the following:

1. Get an Explorer engine, complete from intake to oil pan.
2. Put some Mustang headers on it.
3. Find yourself an EFI box harness. Swap it in the car BEFORE you put the engine in.
4. Find yourself an A9P ECM.
5. Use the A9P ECM instead of the box ECM.
6. Find yourself a Pro-M MAF setup for 19lb/hr injectors, use it instead of the stock 55mm unit.
7. Follow the very clear MAF conversion instructions on Lincoln's online. It's a very similar swap to the Mustang SD to MAF conversion, with some differences, primarily related to the integrated cruise wiring that will be in the box EFI harness. You may find it easier to do the conversion BEFORE fitting the harness to the car.
8. Install engine and get it running.
9. With your remaining funds, get some nice dual exhaust, a set of gears, better suspension.....etc. As you should have lots left over.

I have done a MAF conversion on both my Mustang and my Town Car. It is a much better system than SD. It's adaptive is much better, and it responds to modifications much better. It also gets better fuel economy. If you are going to go through all the hassle of swapping in SEFI, I would definitely go the extra mile and make it a MAF system for those reasons alone.

The Explorer engine is hard to beat for something you can pick up cheap, and complete, and just drop-in. It performs better than the HO engines, has a better intake and heads, and typically have had less abuse (though not always the case).

In regards to nitrous, it's MUCH easier on EFI. Get yourself a NOS dry kit (they are DIRT CHEAP) and plumb the nozzle into the intake pipe pointing at the throttle body. Hook up the vacuum connector (which applies bottle pressure to the regulator to spike the fuel pressure) and jet it to what you want. They normally max out at about a 150-shot. It takes like 20 minutes MAX and you don't need to take anything OFF the engine AT ALL. It's definitely easier than installing a plate system, as a buddy of mine has both, and I've helped him with the installs.

[Mercracer]

I have done a MAF conversion on both my Mustang and my Town Car. It is a much better system than SD. It's adaptive is much better, and it responds to modifications much better. It also gets better fuel economy. If you are going to go through all the hassle of swapping in SEFI, I would definitely go the extra mile and make it a MAF system for those reasons alone.
In regards to nitrous, it's MUCH easier on EFI. Get yourself a NOS dry kit (they are DIRT CHEAP) and plumb the nozzle into the intake pipe pointing at the throttle body. Hook up the vacuum connector (which applies bottle pressure to the regulator to spike the fuel pressure) and jet it to what you want. They normally max out at about a 150-shot. It takes like 20 minutes MAX and you don't need to take anything OFF the engine AT ALL. It's definitely easier than installing a plate system, as a buddy of mine has both, and I've helped him with the installs.

Like I mentioned, there are limitations to running a factory Ford computer. RPM limit is a biggie. IF you are keeping the motor below 6000 RPMs, then it isn't an issue. HO cam and nitrous will allow you to do that.
No way would I run a 150 shot dry system. That is insane. 150 dry with hypereutectic pistons is looking for dead cylinders. Good luck with that 20 minutes installation. Isn't going to happen. You need to give yourself time to drill the bottle mounting holes and mount the bottle and blowdown tube. You need to run the N2O line. You can burn up over 20 minutes just doing that unless you don't mind the install looking like shit. Wiring and mounting the solenoid and setting up your micro switch will also burn up time. You need to wire in your timing retard and your low fuel pressure switch. That is goind to burn up time. You need to run the wires and mount your arming switch where you can reach it while driving. Again, more time unless you want it to look like a 12 year old did it.
With a wet system, you know exactly how much fuel is going into your engine when you are adding nitrous. You will make more power and have longer lasting engine if you keep the proper ratio.

[turbo2256b]

TB cars pullin over 2000HP. Actually think after a lot of research a good TB set up is hard for a carb or SEFI to beat.

[OVERKILL]

Like I mentioned, there are limitations to running a factory Ford computer. RPM limit is a biggie. IF you are keeping the motor below 6000 RPMs, then it isn't an issue. HO cam and nitrous will allow you to do that.
No way would I run a 150 shot dry system. That is insane. 150 dry with hypereutectic pistons is looking for dead cylinders. Good luck with that 20 minutes installation. Isn't going to happen. You need to give yourself time to drill the bottle mounting holes and mount the bottle and blowdown tube. You need to run the N2O line. You can burn up over 20 minutes just doing that unless you don't mind the install looking like shit. Wiring and mounting the solenoid and setting up your micro switch will also burn up time. You need to wire in your timing retard and your low fuel pressure switch. That is goind to burn up time. You need to run the wires and mount your arming switch where you can reach it while driving. Again, more time unless you want it to look like a 12 year old did it.
With a wet system, you know exactly how much fuel is going into your engine when you are adding nitrous. You will make more power and have longer lasting engine if you keep the proper ratio.

The one dry system I mentioned is set to spike the fuel pressure to a certain PSI to obtain a safe A/F and assumes you are running stock fuel pressure with 19lb/hr injectors, which, with an Explorer motor, you would be. Retarding base timing to 8 degrees is enough to run a 150-shot, you don't need any additional timing retard.

You have one nitrous line, on a fox, you just run it down the inside of the subframe connector, and then run it up along the strut tower to the solenoids and then run the line to the intake tubing. It may take longer to do it on a Box, but on a Mustang, its a VERY quick and easy process. And since the fox hatch's floor is like tin, mounting the bottle in the spare tire well is also a very quick job with a cordless drill. Install is invisible and only takes about 20 minutes if you've done it a few times. The micro-switch mounts to the throttle linkage through one of the existing holes.

The RPM limitations of the stock EEC-IV ECM (6,250RPM) wouldn't be an issue with an Explorer engine, which wouldn't make power past about 5,500 anyways. The same goes for the HO engines, which fall off around 5,200.

You are just fine running Nitrous on hyper pistons, just don't detonate it. We ran Nitrous on an 355 in an S10 with hyper slugs all last year, a 125-shot (wet) and the motor still runs just fine. It was swapped out for a forged rig this year though because the shot was upped to a 225-shot.

It's detonation that kills a hypereutectic pistoned engine, NOT the nitrous. A safe A/F and conservative base timing is all that is needed to prevent detonation. A buddy of mine was running that NOS dry kit for YEARS without issue on a stock Mustang HO engine. The only recommended upgrade is a better fuel pump.

I'm just going to add, the reason I mentioned this kit in the first place is because in the Mustang community, it's a VERY common kit, and is known to be very easy to install and problem-free. It's typically run on a pretty much stock engine. Dry kits obviously have their limitations, and the tunability of them is one of those limitations. Keep in mind, this kit is designed to be a "bolt on and go" kit for a pretty much stock 87-95 302HO, and the A/F the kit is tuned to achieve by spiking the fuel pressure is based on that. Of the 3 or 4 guys I know personally who have run this kit, none of them have ever had any issues with it. That being said, they all later upgraded to wet kits because they modified their engines beyond the tunability of the kit (H/C/I). I mentioned it because it would work well with a stock Explorer engine and is REALLY easy to install and work with.

[OVERKILL]

TB cars pullin over 2000HP. Actually think after a lot of research a good TB set up is hard for a carb or SEFI to beat.

I don't see how. And I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm serious, I honestly don't see how a set of fuel injectors mounted in a gutted carburetor body is going to perform any better than a Carburetor at WOT, or better than an SEFI system with equal length runners.

The EFI Spyder setup, like running something like a Super Victor or the like with a CHP elbow, and then like a 90mm throttle body on it, then with an injector bung welded into each runner is pretty common on the big-inch injected engines because of the airflow and per-runner tunability you can do with some of the aftermarket SEFI systems. You can literally tune PER CYLINDER, controlling the fuel each injector fires (each exhaust tube has it's own O2) to make the engines A/F absolutely PERFECT, this would be the epitome of controlled fuel delivery. You can't do that with TBI. You can't do that with a carb. Whilst being INCREDIBLY expensive to implement, I think something like that would be pretty much "as good as it gets". Another iteration of that system is basically the same thing but with an equal-length runner lower (like the TFS-R or Victor Jr. EFI) and a box upper. This way, every cylinder is not only getting the same amount of fuel, but the same amount of air as well. Pretty cool systems, but they are $$$$$$$$$$$$$ and take a lot of time to tune correctly I'd imagine.

Are we on the same page here, or is something like the TB mounted to the carb intake with SEFI injection what you were thinking of?

[88Vic]

Hotrod feel and look? Obviously, you don't know jack shit about carbs, and their ease to tune, and power for cheap value.

I am very tempted to lock you out of the tech forums cause whenever you post here, you sound like a fucking moron.

Wait a sec. Isn't that why a lot of guys go carb instead of EFI, becuase they're easy to tune and you can make a lot of power for cheap? If that's not right, then tell me what's right.

And I may sound like a moron, but at least i'm trying and i'm making an effort to learn. There are some people here who don't even try and all they do is jack around in the bullshit forum.

[Mercracer]

The one dry system I mentioned is set to spike the fuel pressure to a certain PSI to obtain a safe A/F and assumes you are running stock fuel pressure with 19lb/hr injectors, which, with an Explorer motor, you would be. Retarding base timing to 8 degrees is enough to run a 150-shot, you don't need any additional timing retard.

You have one nitrous line, on a fox, you just run it down the inside of the subframe connector, and then run it up along the strut tower to the solenoids and then run the line to the intake tubing. It may take longer to do it on a Box, but on a Mustang, its a VERY quick and easy process. And since the fox hatch's floor is like tin, mounting the bottle in the spare tire well is also a very quick job with a cordless drill. Install is invisible and only takes about 20 minutes if you've done it a few times. The micro-switch mounts to the throttle linkage through one of the existing holes.
You are just fine running Nitrous on hyper pistons, just don't detonate it. We ran Nitrous on an 355 in an S10 with hyper slugs all last year, a 125-shot (wet) and the motor still runs just fine. It was swapped out for a forged rig this year though because the shot was upped to a 225-shot. .

Unless you are using zip ties or worse yet, velcro and tape, it still takes time to do a clean N2O line install on a Mustang. I don't "slap" my stuff together.
With engines tolerating a dry kit, you are talking 2 different beasts. A Mustang HO motor has forged slugs. I have seen HO shortblocks take a 250 shot and keep on rolling. An Explorer motor has hypereutectic slugs. The lean burn heads of the GT40P heads on the Explorer do NOT like much advance. Do not fool yourself, 8 degrees of base timing and leaving everything else alone is not enough. Even NA, P heads like less timing than other motors. Even if you do not have detonation, it is easy to over advance and loose power. The one hypereutectic motor you mentioned is a SBC, not an Explorer motor, and you said that you are running a wet kit.
Save the bench racing lecture about nitrous theory and detonation, I am done discussing this with you. I have seen the damage and I have been running P heads on NA and N2O motors for many years. I learned the hard way about the timing issue and them. I saw other people do the same with blowers and turbos also before we realized what the problem was. I am a Mustang guy who thinks Crown Vics are cool. I stand by my advice as I have seen what happens when you are not conservative and smart about your tune. 1 or 2 of your buddies getting lucky is not a good basis for a broad statement.
I have a consistent low 11 second 120 MPH Capri with an internally untouched Explorer motor with a cam and intake change and a 150 shot of nitrous. I have run as much as a 175 shot with no issues and clean plugs. This motor has alot of passes on it and it hasn't lived this long by accident.

[OVERKILL]

Unless you are using zip ties or worse yet, velcro and tape, it still takes time to do a clean N2O line install on a Mustang. I don't "slap" my stuff together.

If you have hollow (open-ended) SFC's on the Mustang, you can run the line INSIDE the SFC, making it REALLY clean looking, and cuts a LOT of time off the install. That's more along the lines of what I was talking about when I said 20 minutes, in fact, the car that it was done on in 20 minutes was installed in this manner. There was some wiring clean-up and stuff done later to make it prettier, the 20 minute install was done to get it to the track, as we were already late. The guy doing the install has also done it about 30 times, which probably helped keep the time down. Regardless though, installing a dry kit definitely takes less time then doing a wet kit, because of the lack of fuel plumbing..... But yeah, in retrospect, perhaps stating "20 minutes to install" was being a touch optimistic in regards to somebody doing it for the first time, and on a much larger car.........

With engines tolerating a dry kit, you are talking 2 different beasts. A Mustang HO motor has forged slugs.

87-early 92 had forged slugs, late 92 to 95 had hypers. Lots of guys have run N2O (though no larger than a 150-shot, most of the time they keep it below 125) on the hyper engines, the key is, as I'm sure you'll agree, not to detonate it or let it go lean. That's when you break things, forged engine or not, if you rattle it hard enough, it's going to break.

I have seen HO shortblocks take a 250 shot and keep on rolling.

Yep, the forged-piston ones, I'll agree with you on that one.

An Explorer motor has hypereutectic slugs. The lean burn heads of the GT40P heads on the Explorer do NOT like much advance. Do not fool yourself, 8 degrees of base timing and leaving everything else alone is not enough. Even NA, P heads like less timing than other motors. Even if you do not have detonation, it is easy to over advance and loose power.

What about a 96/early 97 engine with the standard GT40's? I wouldn't think they would react like the P heads, since the entire revision to the P heads from the original design was to make them more emissions-friendly, correct? The 8-degrees was in regards to a specific combo: An N/A HO engine. Obviously, if the P heads don't like a lot of timing, you'd run less, that only makes sense.

The one hypereutectic motor you mentioned is a SBC, not an Explorer motor, and you said that you are running a wet kit.

Correct, it's carbureted, so we were running a wet kit on it. And the engine has no clue whether it's a Chev or a Ford. Though the point you made above about the P heads liking less timing is a very valid one. Though early Chevy heads would probably behave in a similar fashion.

Save the bench racing lecture about nitrous theory and detonation, I am done discussing this with you. I have seen the damage and I have been running P heads on NA and N2O motors for many years.

I wasn't trying to be a dick about this, I simply brought up a simple kit that works well on a stock engine. Stating Explorer motor does not instantly imply, nor specify P heads. The 96 motors and the early 97 motors have plain-jane GT40's on them, which would respond differently then the P heads and probably pretty much like the E7 headed HO engines. I've never owned a P-headed engine, so I wouldn't know, obviously you have, and you do.

I learned the hard way about the timing issue and them. I saw other people do the same with blowers and turbos also before we realized what the problem was. I am a Mustang guy who thinks Crown Vics are cool. I stand by my advice as I have seen what happens when you are not conservative and smart about your tune. 1 or 2 of your buddies getting lucky is not a good basis for a broad statement.

I said 3 or 4, and they weren't running P heads, so it's not really the same thing. If in fact the P heads react as differently as you've stated, then I really cannot see a valid basis for comparison.

There are lots of boosted/nitrous 4.6L's out there running conservative tunes with blowers, turbos and N2O on them, and of course they are hyper engines too.

As I'm sure you'll agree, an unsafe tune on anything, dry, wet, blower, turbo, and you can break pretty much anything, hyper slugs or forged ones.

The kit I brought up, again, just to reiterate, was designed for a stock HO engine. It provides a VERY safe A/F when used as designed. On a GT40 (not P) headed Explorer motor, I would think it would behave the exact same. But of course the only way you will KNOW for sure is to use a wideband.

I have a consistent low 11 second 120 MPH Capri with an internally untouched Explorer motor with a cam and intake change and a 150 shot of nitrous. I have run as much as a 175 shot with no issues and clean plugs. This motor has alot of passes on it and it hasn't lived this long by accident.

Sounds like a nice car! I'm expecting similar times N/A, as the guy who designed, and I bought my cam from has run 11.19 with stock GT40's (not P's) and a somewhat crazy intake setup, with a LOT of gear.

A buddy of mine (his dad has the S10) absolutely LOVES Nitrous. It was his car that he ran the dry kit on for years. He's now got a Nitrous Express wet kit, adjustable up to a 300-shot, though the most he's run this far is a 225. We recently split on a wide-band setup that we've primarily been using on the S10, but we intend on using it on his Mustang, and then my Capri as well.

I'm NOT trying to be an asshole, but you seem to think I am. Everybody has their OPINION, I'm not bench racing, I go to the track, and I have first-hand experience with this kit on a stock HO engine. It works well. You obviously have your experience, I have mine, but seemingly with different combo's. I am not trying to discredit your experiences, but you definitely seem to be trying to discredit mine. How this kit behaves on a GT40-headed engine, well, I have no idea. I've never run spray on my GT-40 headed engine, nor do I ever intend to. But, I'm sure, a quick thread on some place like the Corral could bring up lots of results/experiences from people who HAVE run a dry kit on a GT40-headed engine, and probably quite a few of them running hypereutectic pistons. You brought up some great points about the P heads, but we aren't necessarily talking about a P-headed engine either. If he finds a 96 or early 97 engine, then it could have regular GT40's on it, in which case the engine's reaction to the kit could, and probably would be, completely different from your experiences with the P heads. Can we agree on that?

[gadget73]

cheap simple performance? boring old HO or Explorer, box SEFI harness, Mark VII ecm, keep it speed density. F all that aftermarket tuned MAF BS. Keep a stock HO cam in there and the Mark's ECM runs excellent. They're a lot cheaper too. No spray or other silly stuff. Stock HO motor will run for a very long time without failures, they don't require any special parts, pistons, or gaskets, and they're reasonable on fuel, probably in the 20-22 mpg range on a normal basis. If you want a little more fuel economy, stock MAF and an A9L (or whichever the automatic one is) should gain about 1-2 mpg. What else does one need?

[Lincolnmania]

yea high performance parts are expensive and dont fit worth a shit lol

[gadget73]

actually since you're wanting more power, upgrade the heads and intake while you're at it. Home port the E7's or do some bowl work to the gt40s if you go explorer. SOme porting on the explorer or a fair amount on the stock lower and it will really wake the motor up. If you can afford better heads/intake, go for it. Shop around on ebay and corral, you might find a good deal on something.

That cam MrLTD has in his car seems to do nicely but thats getting into the realm of not wanting to run perfectly without a tune. Making the heads breathe and having an intake that flows evenly and close to what the heads flow will make very substantial improvements in how well an engine even with the stock cam runs. That HO cam really isn't bad. Its not radical but its a good mix of power, drivability, and economy in a really common and cheaply available cam.

[Mercracer]

You brought up some great points about the P heads, but we aren't necessarily talking about a P-headed engine either. If he finds a 96 or early 97 engine, then it could have regular GT40's on it, in which case the engine's reaction to the kit could, and probably would be, completely different from your experiences with the P heads. Can we agree on that?

The standard GT40 uses the early style chamber of the 351W and 302. The timing is definitely different when you run a standard GT40 head vs a P. My point about the SBC motor is the head design difference also. I stand by the statement that 8 degrees base and keeping the factory timing curve is too much timing for a hypereutectic motor if you do not wish to take any chances. This leaves you no margin for error. Although you can do a nitrous kit on the cheap, adding a few more dollars in smart support pieces such as a timing retard box or an ignition with retard capabilities (digital 6, etc) is cheap insurance in the long run.

[OVERKILL]

The standard GT40 uses the early style chamber of the 351W and 302. The timing is definitely different when you run a standard GT40 head vs a P. My point about the SBC motor is the head design difference also. I stand by the statement that 8 degrees base and keeping the factory timing curve is too much timing for a hypereutectic motor if you do not wish to take any chances. This leaves you no margin for error. Although you can do a nitrous kit on the cheap, adding a few more dollars in smart support pieces such as a timing retard box or an ignition with retard capabilities (digital 6, etc) is cheap insurance in the long run.

I agree

It's always better to err on the side of caution.

[FatNasty]

Well for whatever reason i like the idea of going with the HO engine from a mustang/mk7 over an explorer motor, but which will get more HP on my budget? Also, are the explorer motors harder to install? Isn't the intake facing the passenger side, and cant be switched?