{ECM} Questions

[turbo2256b]

What does running an HO ECM with bigger injectors on the stock cam do for you though? I'd imagine it would just pump more fuel into the motor than it really needs.

Ran great got great fuel economy later I added the HO TB and a tappered EGR spacer to the lopo upper. Then aquired a Mass Air conversion kit. Never did the HO cam.

[88grandmarq]

For the very last time..... you DO NOT have to change the injector firing order between HO and non-HO ECM's

ALL of the 5.0L SEFI ECM's use the same injector firing order except the 91-93 T/bird and 94-95 Mustang.

Read here: http://fordfuelinjection.com/5.0Lpinouts.html

BTW... disregard the listing in black all the way to the right. To my knowledge, there never was a MAF mark 7

[turbo2256b]

For the very last time..... you DO NOT have to change the injector firing order between HO and non-HO ECM's

ALL of the 5.0L SEFI ECM's use the same injector firing order except the 91-93 T/bird and 94-95 Mustang.

Read here: http://fordfuelinjection.com/5.0Lpinouts.html

BTW... disregard the listing in black all the way to the right. To my knowledge, there never was a MAF mark 7

I was told to do it by the engineer that was responsable for designing the ECMs (he worked right down the hall from me) that it had to be done because the cylinder firing order programed into the ECM was different between lopo and hypo because the cam events are different. Since The cam was the lopo with hypo ECM. Thusly the hypo ECM would think it was firing injector 7 but was realy firing 4. firing 4 it would realy fire 7. Same situation for 5 and 3. If I had put a hypo cam in it would only require switching the plug wires at the cap. I am shure if I didnt the car would have only run on 4 cylinders.

[89GrandMarquis]

LOPO ECM with a HO cam needs to have the injector firing order changed and distributor changed.

Distributor wiring change required - YES.
Injector Firing Order - wiring/pinouts can be changed, but can cause problems.

HO ECM with the LOPO cam needs the injector firing order swapped and needs the HO injectors

Distributor wiring change required - NO.
Injector Firing Order - wiring/pinouts can be changed, but can cause problems.

HO ECM with HO cam put in a LOPO needs the HO injectors and the distributor firing order changed.

Distributor wiring change required - YES.
Injector Firing Order - no wiring/pinouts change needed.

My statements are based on this link:

http://fordfuelinjection.com/index.php?p=92

The content on this web-site matches every other publication I have seen (magazine, factory service manuals, TWEECER instructions, etc). I do believe wholeheartedly in its accuracy.

Whether or not the injectors fire sequentially with the intake valves is NOT REQUIRED for an engine to run. Even when firing out of order, the engine will still run decent.

If you don't believe me, fine. But . . .consider the F150/E150 engine that are batch fire (left bank and right bank alternating (four injectors fire at the same time)). By design, the timing of the injector firing doesn't even come close to the intake valve opening/closing. I have an E150, and it doesn't idle as smooth, but otherwise, it's there is not a significant difference in engine operation.

It is my belief that having the injectors out of order will hurt (to some degree) peak output power, gas mileage, and idle quality, but not so much to cause someone to think that the engine/EFI was broke. Again, think of the trucks EFI. I've evaluated whether or not to upgrade my E150 to MAF and SEFI - why? The MPGs generally go up 2 or 3 MPG. This is just another "data point" which says that mis-timed injectors don't wreck an engine, but have some (although small) affect on efficiency.

Go to the link. Read it. Believe it. Live it.

This post will certainly draw fire. I'd suggest that you take up your argument with these guys:

http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=22

[turbo2256b]

I hve thought about this contaced an engineer responsible for engine calibration. We have worked togeather for years. Out side of work we have done several 5.0 turbo converesions using factory SEFI tricking the stuff to get our results.

1. My car with HO ECM, 19# injectors, switched injector firing order, HO TB
lopo cam and tappered EGR spacer ran great got improved economy and power. There were no driveability issues. The only idle issue was caused by the cone air filter being too close to air coming off the fan blade. Resolved that by adding an air deflector. Plugs always looked perfect and I now how to read idle, midrange and full throttle fuel, initial timing, total timing as well as heat range off spark plug. Ran it that way for 6 years.

2. Firing an injector 180* before the piston and valve are properly positioned in a SEFI system just dosent make any sence. It would not draw a proper air and fuel mixture into a cylinder to get anywere near to achieving maximum potential power. A batch fire would be different.

3. If O2 sensors dont even work all the time. There is so much exhaust running through a manifold it couldnt tell the differance between which cylinder was was firing and are positioned such that they cant as a design perameter. I have designed many exhaust manifolds and know the design intent of O2 sensor location. O2 sensors could measure indivual cylinders if they put one in each port. They are only connected to left bank ... right bank there is no perameter there to discern which cylinder is firing.

4. Never had a rich or lean code out of my car.

5. I would believe an injector or O2 sensor or combo of them would sooner be of by 25% than changing the injector firing order to match the cam.

6. This is based on my 16 years of auto motive engine designing over 35 years of engine building and an automotive engineer with 35 + years of experance.

Have even thought of making the swap again but with the quad motor being so close to being finished only the oil pan, timing set and ballancer off the blue car to complete assembly would it be worth it.

[turbo2256b]

I have thought about this contaced an engineer responsible for engine calibration. We have worked togeather for years. Out side of work we have done several 5.0 turbo converesions using factory SEFI tricking the stuff to get our results.

1. My car with HO ECM, 19# injectors, switched injector firing order, HO TB
lopo cam and tappered EGR spacer ran great got improved economy and power. There were no driveability issues. The only idle issue was caused by the cone air filter being too close to air coming off the fan blade. Resolved that by adding an air deflector. Plugs always looked perfect and I now how to read idle, midrange and full throttle fuel, initial timing, total timing as well as heat range off spark plug. Ran it that way for 6 years.

2. Firing an injector 180* before the piston and valve are properly positioned in a SEFI system just dosent make any sence. It would not draw a proper air and fuel mixture into a cylinder to get anywere near to achieving maximum potential power. A batch fire would be different.

3. If O2 sensors dont even work all the time. There is so much exhaust running through a manifold it couldnt tell the differance between which cylinder was was firing and are positioned such that they cant as a design perameter. I have designed many exhaust manifolds and know the design intent of O2 sensor location. O2 sensors could measure indivual cylinders if they put one in each port. They are only connected to left bank ... right bank there is no perameter there to discern which cylinder is firing.

4. Never had a rich or lean code out of my car.

5. I would believe an injector or O2 sensor or combo of them would sooner be of by 25% than changing the injector firing order to match the cam.

6. This is based on my 16 years of auto motive engine designing over 35 years of engine building and an automotive engineer with 35 + years of experance.

Have even thought of making the swap again but with the quad motor being so close to being finished only the oil pan, timing set and ballancer off the blue car to complete assembly would it be worth it.

[LtMercDaddy]

Imma have to agree with turbo, why would u want 2 cyl firing off injector sequence? would def make for a rough idle.... the cyl would still fire, but def not as efficiently as the others making for unbalenced igniton..... guess im gonna have to do some experimentation with my noid light and timing light.... wonder if my buddy will let me use his mustang as my patient.....

[88grandmarq]

I re-pinned the injectors on the ECM with my HO converted 88 GM it ran the same and the mileage was the same.

[turbo2256b]

88 did you run it long enough for the computer to adapt, clear any possible codes or disconect the battery long enough to take it back to base?

Another issue is Ford dropped the batch fire because sending fuel to cylinders not firing caused gummy fuel deposits on the valves eventualy hurting economy, performance but the most concerning issue to them was emissions. So some of your valves could be gummed up.

Also we are all at the mercy of the calibrater. Some of them were real sharp some were not. There are engines with over 50 calibrations depending on were it was going geographicly, what car it would be used in, what options it had etc. A Mustang ECM is not calibrated optimaly for a 4000# vehicle. A MAS air conversion would be a help with this but timing still would not be optimized. Map will still get the best power and economy results calibration can be a pain and expensive though. I have over 200 dyno runs on a Fiat with a totaly custom FI set up using a Map Electromotive system and believe its real close. One fast little 4 banger.

[88grandmarq]

yes... I ran the car for 3 full tanks of fuel. ECM had time to adapt and there were no codes.
To my knowledge, all the passenger car EFI engines were SEFI starting in 85-86. Truck motors were the only ones that used batch fire on the injectors.

[Blaze86Vic]

You can not properly run an HO cam with a LOPO ECM. I have personal experience with this. Yes you can rewire the injectors to trick the ECM to fire in the correct order HOWEVER. The ECU uses at left and right O2 sensor. The left O2 sensor is used to manage Air/Fuel mix FOR THE LEFT BANK (Cylinders 5, 6, 7, 8) With the LOPO ECM and HO cam, now the left bank O2 sensor is managing the ari/fuel mix for cylinders 3, 4, 6, 8 The obvious problem is that now when the left O2 sensor says to add more fuel to the left bank, more fuel gets added cylinders 3, 4 instead of 5,7

It will run, but will have running issues. With major modification to the LOPO ECM I guess anything is possible. But in all reality, if you are running an HO cam, you have to run an HO ECM. And visa-versa.

15426378 LOPO
13726548 HO

[88grandmarq]

even if the injector fires at the wrong time, the fuel will sit behind the intake valve until it opens.

which is why turbo was saying the Batch fire injection system was stopped.

[turbo2256b]

You can not properly run an HO cam with a LOPO ECM. I have personal experience with this. Yes you can rewire the injectors to trick the ECM to fire in the correct order HOWEVER. The ECU uses at left and right O2 sensor. The left O2 sensor is used to manage Air/Fuel mix FOR THE LEFT BANK (Cylinders 5, 6, 7, 8) With the LOPO ECM and HO cam, now the left bank O2 sensor is managing the ari/fuel mix for cylinders 3, 4, 6, 8 The obvious problem is that now when the left O2 sensor says to add more fuel to the left bank, more fuel gets added cylinders 3, 4 instead of 5,7

It will run, but will have running issues. With major modification to the LOPO ECM I guess anything is possible. But in all reality, if you are running an HO cam, you have to run an HO ECM. And visa-versa.

15426378 LOPO
13726548 HO

Like I said ran for years with no problems. Couldnt even tell the engine was running. I could see if an injector wasnt firing properly dirty or broke what ever. You would have to check both banks of injectors to find the faulty ones. Still I believe it to be very important to fire the injector in proper relation to cam events.

[Blaze86Vic]

My whole statement is with a sequetial injection setup. Not batch. Even sequential injection uses banked O2 sensors.

[Blaze86Vic]

Like I said ran for years with no problems. Couldnt even tell the engine was running. I could see if an injector wasnt firing properly dirty or broke what ever. You would have to check both banks of injectors to find the faulty ones.

Did you have a tune done? Were your O2 sensors bad? If the O2 sensors are bad the ECm will ignore them. It could be that after a little bit of time of the ECM having no luck with the O2 readings it decided to drop that input.

Still I believe it to be very important to fire the injector in proper relation to cam events.

Wouldn't have it any other way. That's the only thing holding me back from doing MS on the Vic, I don't want to regress back to banked injection.